Joe Torre
Seeing some of the comments that many have on how the game last night was handled has me thinking back to something that I thought about Joe Torre, coming into this season.
In terms of his “Yankees Ledger,” this year is Torre’s chance to get back into the post-season black, in my opinion.
If you look at 1996, 1998, 1999, and 2000, it’s clear, Joe Torre met the firm’s mission statement. The Yankees won the World Series.
But, when you look at those years, you have to consider what happened in 1997, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 as well. There are events in most of these non-ring post-seasons where one could point to the team’s overall readiness to play and/or a dugout decision that brought cause for the Yankees failure therein. If you give Torre the credit for 1996, 1998, 1999, and 2000, then he also has to take the hits for 1997, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004.
So, in terms of the mission statement “Ledger,” Torre has 4 wins and 5 losses. And, that’s why, with this season, Joe has a chance to even the score at five each.
I wish I felt confident that this will happen. But, if you look at all of the years, you see a trend in that the last four years are full of bad calls (WS Game 7 in 2001, WS Game 4 in 2003, and lots of stuff in the 2004 ALCS). Basically, if you take out the first WS ring, 1996, in which you can say the team was very hungry, a case could be made that the Yankees only ring wins in post-seasons were where they “steam roll” – and, that when it’s a close series (like 1997, 2001, 2003, and 2004), eventually, in most cases, a call will be made to cost the Yankees the series.
I know, let’s wait and see if the Yankees even make the post-season this year. Still, if they do, based on what we know, if the series they’re in is a tight one, there should be attention paid to how Torre handles it – it might just be his ultimate Yankees legacy.
The playoffs are a crapshoot; the best team in baseball rarely wins the whole thing, even more so with the expanded playoff schedule.
Still, that would mean that you have a 50-50 chance at winning. And, Joe’s at 44% now. [wink]
oh come on- we are blaming Joe Torre because Mo loaded the bases and Derek Jeter was playing in and Gonzalez looped one over his head? I don’t blame him for that- just like I don’t praise him for Tino and Brosious’s 9th inning heroics.
This is a bit of a stretch in my opinion….a real big stretch
I’m not defending or praising Torre- but regardless- a 4-5 record is better than he 50+ other managers who have managed in the same time period.
this is another case of praise the players when they do well, and blame the manager when they don’t.
you know what? Derek Jeter is 4-5 as well. Lets see how his legacy pans out.
Win or lose this year- noone else will wear the #6 in Yankees history.
Steve, philly phil’s post is indicative of what you’re up against when you criticize(or, as I see it, objectively evaluate)Torre with some Yankees fans. Phil readily points out that praise/blame for a manager is difficult to assign…it’s a big stretch in his words. So many factors contribute to success or failure: the players’ performances most of all and just plain luck. But then, at the end, phil is ready to build a monument to Torre. For what? If it’s difficult to assign praise or blame, why the honorifics?
Oh, and Derek Jeter doesn’t make out the line-up, change pitchers, put on plays, manage a bullpen and a bench or continually badger Cashman for aging, over-the-hill veterans he can “trust.” When and if he does, you can evaluate his legacy as well.
Joe Torre has been a great manager for this club for a decade, one of the best in its history. He deserves the respect and gratitude of all Yankee fans. However, that does not mean he’s above criticism. Anyone with any baseball knowledge at all knew that the Franklin move was a terrible one. I would have rather seen Bonnie Franklin out there than Wayne Franklin (or Valerie Bertinelli for that matter). But let’s not overreact. Joe will make some mistakes but on balance, we’re far better off with him.
As I said on another thread, how many managers have four WS victories? How many since 1960?
As for the 2001 WS, if Brosius had thrown to first after the force at third in game 7, ninth inning, they probably had a DP and that would have changed the game.
I do blame Torre for having the infield in when MO is known to get many popups from lefthanded batters.
Steve mentioned (I think jokingly) that in the playoffs you’ve got a “50-50″ shot of winning. The reality is that your chances are far less: eight teams go into the playoffs and only one wins it all, so barring any factors concerning the quality of your team, at best you’ve got a 1/8 chance of winning a championship once you make the postseason. Going along with this this line of reasoning, if you made the playoffs eight times and won the World Series once, statistically you’d be right on the money. (Braves fans — take note!)
Of course, these are the Yankees and we expect them to win every year, which naturally is an unattainable goal. I think it’s a bit of stretch for fans to hold Torre to the same impossible yardstick we hold the rest of the team. You’re welcome to question Torre’s individual decisions, but at this point it’s far too late to question his legacy. That’s pretty much already established — he’s a walk-in to the Hall of Fame as a manager no matter what we think.
***If it’s difficult to assign praise or blame, why the honorifics?***
For the same reason people put so much stock in batting averages, wins, and RBI’s, because that’s the way it’s always been…
Johnny C- I never honored him….or actually- it wasn’t my intent in my post
Just pointing out that his number will be retired….like it or not…it will be….if that is considered honorifics from me…then so be it.
I believe that in Joe Torre’s case- he should not get too much of the credit, nor too much of the blame.
Has he made mistakes? Of course
Has he made some good moves? Of course
In the end- I think his good outweighs his bad.
However- I have the nagging feeling that we all won’t know what he have until it is gone.