Raf, are you Kevin Brown’s boyfriend? Or just a Joe Torre apologist?
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Cute, Mrs. Pavano, cute…

My point then as now is that Torre had no other choice but to start Brown for game 7.

Mussina had started two days prior, Lieber the day before. Don’t know what was up with Duque (without remembering facts and looking it up, it’s seems odd that he only pitched one game in that series). Vazquez was the long man for whatever reason (he started in the ALDS), Loaiza wasn’t an option.

As for Loaiza, he had been racked around. He was probably the last option out of the pen (Jeff Weaver 2003 WS Memorial roster spot), due to his less than stellar work after coming over from the White Sox. No way in HELL do you start him in gm 7.

So, that leaves Brown. He’s a “proven veteran,” rested, and had the experience, having started for the Marlins, Padres and Yanks in the postseason.

Anyway, it never should’ve gotten to a game 7. I suppose we can agree on that.

Raf, are you Kevin Brown’s boyfriend? Or just a Joe Torre apologist?

I’ll repeat: EVERYONE KNEW THAT KEVIN BROWN WAS GOING TO GET TOTALLY EFFING ANNIHILATED. EVERYONE. You know why? Because Brown was hurt, he had been ineffective, and the Red Sox OWNED him that year. Within the past month, he had gone 2.2 innings and given up 11 hits and 8 runs. 11 hits in less than three innings, man! Wake up. Torre was an idiot to start him in a crucial game.

And while Vazquez wasn’t great, he SAVED game three. His line looks bad because he tired late and gave up a two-run home run (in the end he went 4.1 innings and gave up 4 ER).

The other option, as crazy as it sounds now, was to start Loaiza, who pitched well in that series and was very nearly a hero (until the bloop hit he gave up ended a game).

It still makes absolutely no sense that he started that game. You really have to wonder how history would have played itself out if Joe gave the ball to Vazquez or used another starter on short rest.
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Good question. Vazquez was shelled in gm 3 himself, as well as that series in Boston.

Duque probably would have gotten the start on short rest. Moose had started two days prior, Lieber the day before.

Brown needed to go 5 in that game. There was hope that he could. That he was strafed earlier in the series means little, as there are many pitchers who have rebounded from bad outings earlier in a series.

FWIW, I was there for Game 6 in 2004. It sucked. But, up until the last out, you at least felt like the Yankees had a chance in that game. Once that game was over, I knew that they were going to lose Game 7. In fact, I sold my tickets to Game 7 to my friend – because I knew it was going to suck.

Guys, I’m going to put in my two cents and say that game 6, the “Bloody Sock Game,” was worse. That was the single most frustrating game I’ve ever seen- the refusal to bunt against a gimp, Jeter swinging and making an out on the first pitch of the game from said gimp (my spidey sense started tingling on the spot), Posada’s drive that would’ve been in the upper deck on any other night except the ungodly wind that night held it up at the warning track, Schilling’s Red Magic Marker-job and the constant close-ups of it, that same ungodly wind that somehow carried Bellhorn’s three-run bomb just over the left-field fence on a poor pitch-choice from Lieber in an otherwise-well pitched game from him, the weather, the slap play–need I, must I go on? Game 7 was pre-destined but only after the miserable game 6, where they still had a chance and totally blew it. Ugh.

Game 7 of the 2004 ALCS was like watching a someone run over by a train try and pull themselves off the track. You knew before you started watching that they were already dead. Having to see that last futile exercise on their behalf was just extra torture. It was a nightmare – a true, living, nightmare.

Just for your edification, Raf, here’s what Brown did against the Red Sox within a month:

September 26th: 0.2 IP, 6 hits, 4 ER.
October 16th, game three: 2 IP, 5 hits, 4 R, 3 ER.
October 20th, game seven: 1.1 IP, 4 hits, 5 ER.

Before game seven, Brown couldn’t go more than two innings against them. And in his two innings of playoff action against them, he gave up five hits.

Was anyone even a little surprised when he went out there and bombed in game seven? If you were, you weren’t paying attention to how the Red Sox looked at Brown like batting practice. I guess the only one who didn’t see this coming was Torre.

I do know, Raf. Because this wasn’t just about “not having his stuff” — Brown was HURT. His back was in horrible shape and he couldn’t WALK. It’s a disgrace that he even pitched in the post-season. Not to mention he got shelled by the Red Sox TWICE in recent days before game seven, including the playoffs. It still boggles my mind that he started that game. He got KILLED twice — absolutely murdered by this same team. And he starts the most important game of the year?

I blame Torre more than I do Brown. You know Brown, who was popping cortisone shots in his back like acupuncture needles, was always going to take the ball. It was Torre’s job to step in and show some leadership.

Think about it: Brown was crippled and he showed an inability to get anyone out on the Red Sox.

It still makes absolutely no sense that he started that game. You really have to wonder how history would have played itself out if Joe gave the ball to Vazquez or used another starter on short rest.

I just always think of the incredible selfishness of Kevin Brown. That his ridiculous ego and stupid sense of being macho cost us that game. They ask him if he’s okay to pitch, and he says yes, knowing that he had nothing.
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He isn’t the first, nor will he be the last. There have been pitchers who’ve had nothing in the pen but have come into games dealing, there have been pitchers who couldn’t bring their “pen game” to the mound, and have gotten shelled.

And you don’t know if he knew he had nothing.

That’s alright, Steve. When we talk about Kevin Brown in that game, we really have to say he “started” (in quotation marks) since he only lasted one-plus innings (giving up a homer in the first and loading the bases with no one out in the second).

I hate to open this can of worms, but that’s probably the most painful game I’ve ever watched — even worse than game seven of the World Series in 2001, the Jeff Weaver/Torre’s “If I Only Had a Brain” game in the World Series of ’03 and Moose’s near-perfect game (all of which depressed me greatly). But that game in particular gets to me. I just always think of the incredible selfishness of Kevin Brown. That his ridiculous ego and stupid sense of being macho cost us that game. They ask him if he’s okay to pitch, and he says yes, knowing that he had nothing. At what point do you put your team’s entire year before your own ego? And if there was ever a time to be honest, it was on the eve of the biggest collapse in sports history. On the other end, the fact that Torre didn’t have the balls or the smarts to not start Brown in that game should have cost him his job. Not to mention that Brown actually came back the next year! — and stuck around for a while, since Wright got hurt before he did.