• September 17th vs. The Red Sox – Game 2

    Posted by on September 17th, 2006 · Comments (25)

    If you would have told me that the Yankees would lose three of four to the Red Sox this weekend, but, Torre would rest the bullpen in the process, I would have been O.K. with that result.

    But, the fact of the matter is that the Yankees dropped three of the four games, and, over the two days where the four games were played, they pitched:

    Proctor, Villone and Farnsworth each on both days – with Proctor throwing three innings (whereas Villone goes 2.3 and Farnsworth throws 2 IP). And, Bruney goes twice in one day, on Saturday while Myers also goes twice in one day, on Sunday.

    Some rest, huh?

    Torre using his pen like this in four games, over two days, where three of the contests were losses, is as disgusting as watching Bernie Williams, standing 50 feet behind second base, try and throw a runner out at home plate.

    Now, sure, much of the losses had to do with how the Yankees pen threw this weekend. And, maybe if these guys pitched better then New York would have won more games here. But, then again, maybe these guys are burnt – and that’s why they pitched the way they did – and that’s just more proof that they needed the rest this weekend?

    Comments on September 17th vs. The Red Sox – Game 2

    1. baileywalk
      September 18th, 2006 | 12:33 am

      Apparently I complain too much. Well, too bad, because I’m going to complain some more.

      Torre is by far the worst manager of pitchers I’ve ever seen — and that includes when I was in high school and little league.

      Why did he leave Myers in there to die, facing righty after righty? Myers has shown some ability to get righties out this year, but he’s a lefty specialist for a reason. Veras can’t get ONE out? Dotel can’t get ONE out? Why warm them up if you’re not going to use them?

      I don’t understand what Torre was thinking. He left Myers to die and give up the lead. At what point, with two outs and still having the lead, do you bring in a righty to face a righty and get your lefty specialist out of the game?

      I don’t want to hear about “resting the bullpen,” either. It wouldn’t have blown the bullpen out for Veras to get one out.

      Posada, who’s on fire, got robbed of the game-winning hit. Maybe he was distracted or something, because he was horrible in the ninth — he threw wide of first on the Coco Crisp bunt and then couldn’t handle the Farnsworth slider which struck out Papi (for the fourth time this year).

      Tell us why Bernie is playing centerfield in the ninth. He was practically standing on second base and they tagged up and his throw wasn’t even close! Why not let Thompson play center for that one inning? I love Bernie — we all love Bernie — he’s an icon, a great player, etc., etc., etc., but that was flat-out pitiful.

      Farnsworth gave up that leadoff double, but he did his job after that, and he deserved more than getting hung with the “L.”

      It’s no big deal that we lost three of four to the Red Sox — especially since Torre gave two of the games away — but it’s still pretty frustrating. If anything, this series shows how improbable that five-game sweep was. 1) Because our pitching suffers against their hitters, and 2) because Torre managed NOT to screw up for five games in Fenway.

    2. Jen
      September 18th, 2006 | 12:54 am

      I ripped up a sign that some teenaged Sox fan was holding tonight. It made me feel much better.

    3. baileywalk
      September 18th, 2006 | 1:01 am

      Nice going, Jen. Sounds like the start of a new therapy. Did you literally grab it out of his hands and tear it up in front of his face? I would have paid to see that.

    4. Jen
      September 18th, 2006 | 1:12 am

      It was a girl. Late teens, early 20s. She had a big red sign with Red Sox stuff written on it and her friend had a sign too. Between innings or when the Sox scored a run they would hold up their signs (I think they were trying to get on ESPN).

      When the Sox tied it up in the 8th I finally got fed up enough that I stepped up on the bench behind the chick and tore the sign in two, so she had 1 piece in each hand. Between innings a cop pulled me aside and told me not to do it again, but he enjoyed what I did anyways.

    5. Don
      September 18th, 2006 | 3:37 am

      Right, all Torre’s fault. What a bunch of whining losers. May Charlie Manual be your next manager.

      The players looked and played as if dead. Against the Bosox pitching the hitters snoozed. Yeah, Torre actually tried to win a few of the games, too bad the players didn’t show up this weekend.

      ++++++++++

      Congrats Jen, that’s Yankee pride. Can’t win? Act stupider than them.

    6. #15
      September 18th, 2006 | 7:31 am

      Don,
      Clearly you’ve never been to a game in Boston. It would be impossible to be “stupider than them.” 7 year-old girls walking around with Jeter Suc*s on the front of their shirts, and A-Rod Swallo%s) on the back. 35,000 (all white) people with not a bone of civility on their collective body.

      Good work Jen.

    7. September 18th, 2006 | 8:34 am

      Don – your team is 1 for it’s last 88, no?

    8. JeremyM
      September 18th, 2006 | 9:40 am

      In retrospect, I wish they would’ve went with a full lineup in the first of those games and then went house money for the second, and told Moose “get your work in, don’t worry about the result.” I was far more annoyed than I should’ve been that the Yanks lost last night. Nick Green playing (twice!) tends to do that to me:) But after Crisp’s catch, you just have to say it wasn’t the Yanks night. That was an excellent catch from him, and then our center-fielder’s throw, God bless him, was just awful. He looked like he was going to cry afterwards, and I was with him. Poor guy. But really, Torre needs to not put him in that spot anymore. As bad as Damon’s arm is, it’s not as shot as poor Bernie’s.

      By the way, isn’t Don a Yanks fan? His team is 26 for their last 88:)

    9. September 18th, 2006 | 9:46 am

      Watching Bernie make that “throw” last night was like watching Willie Mays in the 1973 World Series.

      If there were 50,000 people at the game last night, there were probably, at least, 2,000 people in the stands who could have made a better throw on that play.

      If Damon gets injured during a post-season series, and Torre plays Bernie in CF, it will be a crime. Why Torre has never given Melky some playing time in CF this season, in case of such an emergency, is beyond reason.

      Gosh I hope the Yankees and Bernie come to some retirement agreement this winter. Put him on the YES SAP team, if he needs an excuse to get out of the house during the summer.

    10. baileywalk
      September 18th, 2006 | 12:25 pm

      Right, all Torre’s fault. What a bunch of whining losers. May Charlie Manual be your next manager.

      —————

      Don, instead of calling us “whining losers,” why not challenge the substance of our argument — that is, Torre leaving Myers, a lefty specialist, in to face five righty batters in the eighth inning with the lead? Is this something you agree with? Would you have done it? Don’t you think it cost us the game?

      Personally, I would have taken Myers out after he walked Papi on four pitches (even though Nixon was coming up after Lowell). But even if you let him pitch to Lowell, you can’t let him get beyond that, since Francona kept running up righty after righty. Myers then hit Mirabelli and threw a breaking ball in the dirt to Pedroia. Two outs, one-run lead — Torre needed to wake up and get a righty in the game. He left Myers out there to die and it wasn’t a smart move.

      And leaving Bernie in to play center was just ridiculous.

    11. Kered Retej
      September 18th, 2006 | 12:51 pm

      [QUOTE] It was a girl. Late teens, early 20s. She had a big red sign with Red Sox stuff written on it and her friend had a sign too. Between innings or when the Sox scored a run they would hold up their signs (I think they were trying to get on ESPN).

      When the Sox tied it up in the 8th I finally got fed up enough that I stepped up on the bench behind the chick and tore the sign in two, so she had 1 piece in each hand. Between innings a cop pulled me aside and told me not to do it again, but he enjoyed what I did anyways. [/QUOTE]

      [SOAPBOX] While I understand the sentiment, this is one of the reasons I rarely watch sports in person any more. It’s one thing to ask them to set their sign down if it’s blocking your view, but it’s another to grab someone else’s property and destroy it. [/SOAPBOX]

      On topic, I think we’ve been over this ground time and time again: Joe doesn’t really know how to manage his bullpen. That’s just a fact, and something we have to live with as long as he is the manager. On the other hand, if there is one guy in the league who might possibly be able to figure out a way to shoehorn Sheff into this roster without causing a team chemistry breakdown, it’s Joe.

    12. Joel
      September 18th, 2006 | 1:14 pm

      Here we go again…the Joe bashing is in full force. Never mind that the team has had a great year and are the odds on favorites to win it all.

      Sure Bernie can’t throw anymore. Damon can’t throw either. And Joe rightly is not going to take Bernie’s bat out of the lineup in a tie game. When Bernie gets that base hit off of Johan Santana in the 7th inning of a tie game next month, I’m sure everyone will rise in unison to call for his graceful exit. Right?

      The bottom line is Mike Myers stunk. He gift-wrapped the tying run to the Red Sox with two weak hitters at the plate. And yes, he should have been in the game given the makeup of the bullpen at that point. I’m not trusting Dotel or Veras in that situation, and Joe needs to see what Myers actually has against so-so RH hitters, because there may be some situations in the playoffs where Joe has to stretch Myers out for more that a 1/3 of an inning.

      On this site, Torre kind of reminds me of Phil Simms, who was lambasted even as he consistently did well. When Joe finally leaves, I have no doubt (as was the case with Simms) that the same crowd who bashed him will say the next Yankees manager pales in comparison to the Great Joe Torre.

    13. MJ
      September 18th, 2006 | 1:46 pm

      1. Regarding Steve’s request for Bernie to retire, Heyman says it might be coming up soon:

      http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/09/18/monday.scoop/index.html

      2. Regarding the “Torre-bashing” referred to by Joel (and to a lesser extent, Don), saying “Sure Bernie can’t throw anymore. Damon can’t throw either” is basically the “liar liar pants on fire” defense. Damon can’t throw and neither can Bernie. But the big difference between the two players is that Bernie’s range is horrendous. When Damon’s not in CF, it should be Melky (or Guiel, or Kevin Thompson) out there in the middle. It should never be Bernie. Ever. But it will be, because Torre is set in his ways about stuff like this.

      I can’t speak for anyone else that “Torre bashes” but, speaking only for myself, not enough credit is given to Joe’s masterful management style in the clubhouse. He seems to find a way to connect with most of his players and is able to extract a team-first mentality with most of them. That being said, it does not change the reality that Torre is woefully overmatched in the dugout. How on earth can he (or anyone else) not see that Bernie’s only position on the field is RF at Yankee Stadium. Bernie stopped being an everyday defensive CF in 2002. It is now 2006.

      It’s not Bernie’s fault the Yankees lost last night so I don’t want to turn this around on him. The larger point is that it isn’t “Torre-bashing” when someone simply raises a question about the logic of many of the man’s decisions…

    14. Jen
      September 18th, 2006 | 1:49 pm

      Kered, I certainly respect your opinion, and it probably wasn’t the most mature thing I’ve done in my adult life. But it’s not like I assaulted them or took the girl’s Red Sox backpack and stomped on it. It was a paper sign. They were repeatedly asked to lower it for 8 straight innings. And this was in the bleachers to boot, where overt celebrating for the opposing team is not tolerated. They took it all rather well. After the game the girls were taking pictures of themselves with the ripped sign. It was more in good fun than anything malicious. If things were getting nasty between them and the rest of us I probably wouldn’t have done it. And plus, now they have a story to tell their friends.

    15. baileywalk
      September 18th, 2006 | 2:22 pm

      >>Here we go again…the Joe bashing is in full force.>Never mind that the team has had a great year and are the odds on favorites to win it all.>Sure Bernie can’t throw anymore. Damon can’t throw either. And Joe rightly is not going to take Bernie’s bat out of the lineup in a tie game. When Bernie gets that base hit off of Johan Santana in the 7th inning of a tie game next month, I’m sure everyone will rise in unison to call for his graceful exit. Right?>The bottom line is Mike Myers stunk. He gift-wrapped the tying run to the Red Sox with two weak hitters at the plate. And yes, he should have been in the game given the makeup of the bullpen at that point. I’m not trusting Dotel or Veras in that situation, and Joe needs to see what Myers actually has against so-so RH hitters, because there may be some situations in the playoffs where Joe has to stretch Myers out for more that a 1/3 of an inning.>When Joe finally leaves, I have no doubt (as was the case with Simms) that the same crowd who bashed him will say the next Yankees manager pales in comparison to the Great Joe Torre.<<

      That will never, ever happen. Why? Because Torre isn’t great. He bungles when it comes to game strategy and bullpen usage every game. Joe ruined every team he came to before this one — where there was too much talent for him to screw up.

      The bottom line for me is that Joe basically made an indefensible move by not taking out Myers last night, and yet his undying supporters still back him up. As if he can’t be wrong. Which makes me think that no matter what he does, you’re going to be blinded by your like/love/respect for him and not face the fact that he’s fallible.

    16. Joel
      September 18th, 2006 | 3:21 pm

      Believe me, I have been critical of Joe numerous times. But the vitriol hurled at him by many on this site is flat out ridiculous. Some very recent examples:

      He “ruined” every team he was at before the Yanks?
      Come on.

      He made an “indefensible” move leaving Myers in the game last night?
      Is any move really indefensible with a 10 1/2 game lead in mid-September?

      He bungles bullpen usage “every game?”
      Oh, I’m sure that’s what it will say on his plaques in Monument Park and Cooperstown.

    17. baileywalk
      September 18th, 2006 | 3:40 pm

      Joel, read the following link and tell me if he didn’t ruin every team he joined.

      http://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/archives/178976.html.

    18. Kered Retej
      September 18th, 2006 | 6:04 pm

      Jen – Sorry, I didn’t really mean to indict your or your behavior. Hope you didn’t take too much offense. It sounds like it wasn’t mean-spirited and the “victims” were not bothered by it, and clearly it is far from the worst display of rude fan behavior. I have been on the receiving end of worse treatment for doing nothing more than wearing a Yankees cap and clapping when our team made a good play, and it always bugs me that going to a ballgame is no longer family-friendly. On the plus side, my son has gotten to know the Pretties Baseball Stadium on the West Coast (otherwise known as Sunken Diamond at Stanford University) pretty well.

    19. Jen
      September 18th, 2006 | 10:35 pm

      No worries. Just wanted to clear the air what the situation was like.

    20. Joel
      September 18th, 2006 | 11:06 pm

      Baileywalk–please, enough already. What’s next? Casey Stengel was overrated because he mishandled Whitey Ford in the 1960 World Series?

    21. baileywalk
      September 18th, 2006 | 11:40 pm

      Um, what? Did I complain telepathically or something?

    22. Don
      September 19th, 2006 | 3:43 am

      Ha-ha Steve, funny.

      But other than the 2004 ALCS why should I consume myself wih hate towards the Bosox? We play them like a fiddle. I love it!

      ++++

      Jen, two wrongs don’t make a right. And reverse racism is still racism, as per your remark about the Fenway crowds makeup.

    23. Don
      September 19th, 2006 | 3:46 am

      Now we have Torre bungling bullpen usage every game.

      Holy moly!!! How does this team ever win 75 games, let alone 9 straight AL East titles. Dumb Joe, smart as a fox.

    24. Jen
      September 19th, 2006 | 10:49 am

      Don, I didn’t make the Fenway crowd remark.

      If you’d like to scold me further, my email address is on my web site. Let’s not muck up Steve’s site with this stuff.

    25. #15
      September 20th, 2006 | 10:36 pm

      Don,
      I made “the Fenway park remark”. Scream if you want, but only a fool trys to ignore the truth. The Fenway Park experience is not one readily enjoyed by a cross section of the Boston population. More of a punk, pug, and prep school country club.

    Leave a reply

    You must be logged in to post a comment.