Sheff: Torre Messed Our Heads In Loss To Tigers
From the USA Today:
Torre, who managed the Yankees to 11 consecutive postseason appearances, has come under scrutiny for the Yankees’ latest playoff loss. He benched Sheffield in Game 3 and first baseman Jason Giambi in Game 4 of the playoffs, and caused a firestorm when he demoted Rodriguez to the eighth spot in the batting order in Game 5.
“I think that affected the morale and psyche of the entire team, not just A-Rod,” Sheffield said. “”I’m not making any excuses, but everyone was wondering what was going on. It made it a real weird day. You would like to be treated with a little respect, I don’t care who you play for.
“We were worrying about all of that stuff, and we still had a game to play. If I’m on the other side, and all of a sudden they’re putting Rodriguez eighth and putting me or Jason on the bench, you wonder what’s going on. Those guys [the Tigers] were asking me about it. I think it boosted their morale. It gave them confidence they didn’t have.
“[Tigers manager] Jim Leyland took advantage of that. He can make you believe anything. He can put a fire under your belt like you never had before in your life.
“Not to make excuses, but we didn’t have that.”
Funny, when Torre benched Tino and Boggs in 1996, the team went on to win the World Series. If the Torre moves did upset the team’s head for the ALDS, I think that’s proof that this squad lacked the mental toughness of a champion.
Hopefully, the Yankees know who’s on the “Priss Squad” on this team and they get them all out of here before the start of next season.
I don’t really care to argue the merits of Sheff’s hypothesis, Steve, I just think there’s a lot of cosmic irony in the fact that it’s coming from the guy Torre bent over backwards to work back into the line-up, even to the extent of playing him at 1st Base and batting him cleanup against a guy whose slider he’s never shown any ability to hit. And he didn’t bench ARod. He humiliated him. I’m not a big ARod fan, as you know, but, come on. That’s cold. And 1996 was the last time Torre ever made a line-up or roster decision based on anything other than “trust.” Probably why it worked.
Johnny, you’re right on the money. It’s hilarious to hear this from Sheff, since the worst thing Torre did was trust him so much that he stuck him in the fourth spot (and benched Giambi) even though he wasn’t very to play.
But I more or less agree with what Sheff is saying. Torre seemed to be scrambling after game two. Maybe he knew his job was on the line. Who knows. The bottom line is that he embarrassed A-Rod by basically pointing the finger at him, and the lineup shenanigans only helped to mind-f*ck his players. It could be one explanation for why they played like somnambulants out there. I certainly can’t think of any other reason.
This loss is a little easier to swallow with the always entertaining and informative johnnyc around. I’ve missed him.
Johnny is dead on as far as what Torre did for Sheffield, but, I agree with bailey’s take on it. When I saw A-Rod batting 8th I was scratching my head, and I still am. I don’t necessarily think it was the deciding factor, at all, but there’s something to it. It was almost akin to Torre putting Wilson in right to get an outfielder (which worked out brilliantly with Mondesi)–i.e., Torre wants A-Rod gone. And maybe some fans agree with him, but I still wonder who will be able to match him that can reasonably be acquired, and what talent will actually come back in any deal? I’ve seen comparisons made to when Rickey was dealt, and I’m afraid they might be on to something.
Sheff’s comments represent everything the Yanks have become over the past several years – a team composed primarily of coddled, overpaid, underperforming pantywaists whose fragile ego gets bruised whenever they bat anywhere but 3, 4, or 5 in the batting order. You can’t have a successful team in which every player thinks he should be the man. This experiment of composing a roster of cleanup hitters has failed miserably.
Yeah, who can match A-Fraud’s regular season numbers. Of course the team didn’t need to 1996-2001. Five WS, four rings, a MO error away from five rings.
Now who can match the woeful 4 for his last 41 that this guy has put up the last three post seasons?
I meant to add this in my last comment (on a different post). The LA teams seem to be interested in Arod. They could afford him. They also have some good prospects. Perhaps some combo from the Angels: Weaver, Santana, Shields, B. Wood, Aybar, Kendrick, Adenhart. Or LaRoche, DeWitt and Elbert from the Dodgers. Just throwing out ideas.
If the team is worried about those moves then no wonder they lost, they shouldn’t be concerned where they are hitting in the lineup, they should just got out there and try to win, no wonder why this team hasn’t won anything in 6 years. Jeter and Posada must hate this team..true Yankees til the end.
Sheffield’s a joke; always has been, always will be. There’s a reason he’s going to be working in his 7th clubhouse next year.
As for the whole concept that Torre humiliated ARod…so what if he did? Batting him 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th at various points during the past 3 years didn’t seem to be helping him. It was always a Catch-22 with Alex. If you batted him high in the order, he’d shit a brick that he had responsibilities as a run producer and he’d blow an AB. If you hit him low, he was too worried with the shame and the inferences, real or imagined, that might be made by the manager or the press.
Finally, I do have to say this: I hate it when people talk about what Jeter or Posada must think of the recent string of early playoff exits. This isn’t meant to be negative or critical but they’re part of the team as well and they bear an equal burden of any shame or blame. Yes, Jeter had a great statistical series. But you win as a team and you lose as a team. All the times he’s said “Well, some of us know what it takes to win” is a stupid and divisive thing to say, in my opinion. Posada might be angry at how things went, but no one told him that Game 2 was the time to go back to being a sloppy defensive catcher like he was earlier in his career.
Now who can match the woeful 4 for his last 41 that this guy has put up the last three post seasons?
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There were more than 41 AB’s from 2004-06.
Anyway, the team not hitting was the reason for the early exit. Nothing to do with slights, percieved or otherwise. The team simply did not hit.
MJ, you must not have ever played on a team before or been an important part of one. The reason I talk about what Jeter and Posada think is because I know what it’s like to play with a bunch of guys who you know just don’t have it in them and your doing your best. It’s hard, believe me I’ve been there so I’m sure they feel the same way, you can almost see it in Jeter’s face, and Posada as well, those two guys play with so much passion, and I’m sure they wouldn’t complain about the batting order or who’s not playing in the game like the other guys. It’s stuff like that from their other teammates which probably drives them crazy. Jeter has been saying for years this isn’t the same team, I thought this year was different but it’s not, they need to get rid of some of these guys if they actually want to win the world series again. If they just want to make the playoffs and lose then they can do that with this team but that’s it.
Antone, you’re actually incorrect about me. Not only did I play on a team, but I was a big part of one.
You’re too quick to make judgements without knowing my facts and personal history. But I forgive you. I’m sure your passion to win on your sports teams blinded you to the fact that teams win and lose together. No one player is ever more important. I never questioned Jeter’s or Posada’s dedication to winning, nor did I say that they were out-and-out bad teammates. All I said is that sometimes Jeter and Posada, like the rest of us, need reminding that even the hungriest and most motivated of players have to be held accountable to the same standards in which they hold others.
Antone, you’re a little bit out of line here.
It’s hard, believe me I’ve been there so I’m sure they feel the same way, you can almost see it in Jeter’s face, and Posada as well, those two guys play with so much passion
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Jaret Wright pitched with passion, didn’t do him a lick of good.
Histrionics is rarely an acceptible substitute for talent.
“Still waters run deep”
That’s the point MJ, you don’t have enough guys on the team that are for the TEAM…I never said that individuals win, the problem is you have too many individuals on one team and not enough guys like Jeter and Posada. Everyone should be held accountable but if these guys are making excuses and worrying about where they are batting in the lineup then they are too worried about themselves and that is going to affect their play. All I was saying is that whether they do go or bad, at least you know Jeter and Posada aren’t out for personal glory and they aren’t concerned with little things like the batting order.
MJ you may have been on a team but I was just bringing it up as saying you weren’t on a team or if you were on a team you might as well have not be on it because you may have missed the point of yes you win and lose as a team but when you have other teammates who don’t share the same opinion of “team” then your team won’t do well.
Raf, I would say the same for Jaret Wright, that he is for the team from what I can see, but I never said you just need passion to win, you obviously need talent too and we know Wright doesn’t have the best talent anymore. By the way Raf, your always disagreeing with people’s opinions and never making your own, what’s up with that? All I do is read the post and I already know its you without even reading the name of the poster.
By the way Raf, your always disagreeing with people’s opinions and never making your own, what’s up with that?
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By disagreeing, and explaining why I disagree, I’m forming my opinion. But if you want, I can lay out my opinion on just about every subject under the sun
With regards to this subejct, playing on a team, you have different kinds of personalities. Just because someone’s a “redass” doesn’t necessarily mean that they care more about a team than someone who is “aloof” about things. The Yanks did not lose this series because of “25 players, 25 cabs” they lost because they ran into the Tiger pitching staff. They lost last year for a number of reasons, same goes back every year since 2001. In a short series, anything can happen.
And thank you, for noticing my writing style. A lot of posts over the years went into developing it
Very distinct if I do say so myself.
I still think with that much talent on the team, for the Yanks to hardly hit in the series, then something else is wrong and it can’t just be good pitching because Detroit stunk second half of the season. So somebody was hitting their pitching
4-41 is still 4-41, no matter how you slice it.
4-41 is still 4-41, no matter how you slice it.
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Sorry, but you have to include ARod’s 2004 ALCS & ALDS along with his 2005 & 2006 ALDS. And if you really want to get picky, you have to include the rest of his postseason career.
In the grand scheme of things 41 at-bats means nothing. Especially when you have many more AB’s that say otherwise.