Clueless Joe
The Yankees have played seven games so far this season. Luis Vizcaino has pitched in five of the seven and Scott Proctor has appeared in four of the contests. For the record, Brian Bruney and Mike Myers have also pitched in four games (to date) this year – but they have not faced as many batters as Vizcaino and Proctor this season (so far).
It’s becoming clear that Vizcaino and Proctor will be the 2007 version of Quantrill and Gordon (circa 2004). When Torre brought Proctor into the game last night, the Yankees had a 6-run lead. There’s no reason why Proctor (or Vizcaino) should be in a game like that, at that point.
Sean Henn has pitched in three games this season. His last outing was April 8th – where he threw two-thirds of an inning. Henn should have been the pitcher after Pettitte in last night’s game – not Proctor. And, after Penn, it should have been Mike Myers (not Vizcaino). But, Joe Torre doesn’t get it.
And, he never will.
Get a good look at Vizcaino and Proctor now. Because, once Joe is done with them, they’re going to be cooked by the end of the season.
Make some room Quantrill, Karsay, Mendoza, and Sturtze (etc.). There are two more arms heading towards the Joe Torre Relief Pitchers Graveyard. Man, it’s getting crowded there.
Oh I don’t know. One of those games Vizcaino piched one third of a inning and Henn is still recovering fronm the 3 innings he threw in relief of Moose (I think). I agree that Henn should have gone in intead of EDSP but Myers is a different story, it’s not Torre’s fault they are carrying him and he isn’t meant for use like a regular reliever.
Joe Torre: Using high-leverage pitchers in low-leverage situations since 1996!
I can’t wait till the day they fire Torre or he leaves. I really can’t stand all this second guessing.
Do a whole lot of you actually believe Torre is trying to mess up these players careers? Do you not think they were fragile to begin with and maybe their brief period that they were good was only temporary?
Quantrill was cooked when he got here, he had made the most appearances of any reliever the prior year (before he got to the Yankees). Sturtze shined with the Yankees and only the Yankees, and even that was brief.
Before Karsay got to the Yanks he had years of the following games which he appeared and IP:
99 – 50 GA, 78.7 IP
00 – 72 GA, 76.7 IP
01 – 74 GA, 88 IP
02 – 78 GA, 88.3 IP
How did Torre abuse Karsay again? Please elaborate. He also had Stanton and Mendoza the one year Karsay was not hurt.
Let’s look at other relievers and their usage, would you say that Mike Scioscia is doing the same with Scott Shields? How about Donnelly? Did Scioscia cook him too?
How about Mike Timlin? Did Tito cook him too?
How about Duaner Sanchez? Did Willie cook him too, albeit up until the point he had his taxi accident?
To me it seems as a persistent problem across the majors that once a manager finds a reliable arm in their bullpen then they will constantly go to said player. More so if they are in a pennant race.
I love how quick people are to question someone who is in a position that knows more than any of us.
Quick story, in my prior job the sales force was always peeved at engineering because they didn’t understand why it took so long to implement each customer after the sale was completed. They didn’t understand why there isn’t one button that someone can push and it drive the entire process and make everything so seamless. Engineering was constantly fighting with them that they no idea what they were talking about, but they insisted something like that could easily be developed. What’s the point? They knew absolutely nothing how difficult it is to get data from disparate data systems and integrate them into one.
We have no idea how difficult it is to manage a bullpen and the fact that Torre might have some inside knowledge that none of us have and he doesn’t share with the media. He feels secure going to the same set of guys, I don’t blame him…because the minute a lead is diminished and a 6 run lead turns to a 3 run lead then we are all sweating and pissed. I used to love how people were always mad at how Dusty Baker seemed to abuse his starting pitchers, but the guy had no bullpen. The minute he’d bring in Farnsworth then the lead would disappear. In the heat of the battle, the managers are chasing the win first. It’s what the team wants and what the position players want. I am sure they try and remain conscious of their bullpen usage, but in the immortal words of Herm Edwards, “you play to win the game”.
It is by no accident that the Yanks have 87+ games every year that Torre has managed. For some of you he has never managed the bullpen correct, but yet he’s won. Again, I implore all the Torre critics to throw out names of a manager that they’d like to see managing the Yanks that will manage the bullpen exactly right? To the letter of the law, or your law. Every night, day in and day out, that manager will be great at managing the bullpen. Please, I have yet to find a good answer for that question.
Bruney has only thrown to less batters because, unlike Proctor, he’s getting people out with ease.
Bruney, ‘Caino and Proctor are definitely on the road for a burnout.
No matter how many times it’s pointed out, Torre just won’t change.
Myers probably isn’t worth carrying, but you could use him as a bonus by letting him pitch in games like last night. Even if he gives up a few runs over the final two innings, he’s still saving his teammates from having to throw. That’s value. Myers has shown now that he can throw against righthanders.
Hopefully the starters will continue this trend of six innings or better and the bullpen won’t be dead by the ASB.
Here’s the good news, though: since ‘Caino, Bruney, Proctor, Farnsworth and Henn can get outs, Torre doesn’t have to play favorites. If he’s willing to trust all of them — instead of falling in love with one or two guys like he always does — the workload will sort itself out. That’s really the important thing: he has to have faith that even if someone has a bad game one day or isn’t quite perfect in an inning, he can still come back a day or two later and get the job done. The problem with Torre is that his trust is gained and shattered within an inning — and that’s just not fair to a reliever.
Excellent post, Garcia.
Shame on Steve et al. This is the same nonsense every year, and the team wins 90+ games how many times under Joe Torre?
The starters are blowing up and fans, who after five (5) games were suffering angst over a 2-3 record, now have nothing else to write about but the tired old canard that Torre wrecks the bullpen?
Charlie Manuel, anyone?
And to think, there are 155 games remaining……
I’m off to Bedlam.
Odd, I just got done praising Torre for his bullpen usage this season on my blog.
Rivera: 3.0 IP
Farnsworth: 3.0 IP
Bruney: 3.2 IP
Myers: 4.0 IP
Proctor: 4.1 IP
Vizcaino: 4.2 IP
Henn: 4.2 IP
Considering how crappy the starting pitching was for the first 5 games and the amount of innings the bullpen had to make up, I think Torre did a damn good job.
I love arguments that point to Strutze and Karsay as evidence of Torre’s bullpen mismanagement. Those are the guys we should be burning out.
Let’s say Torre did bring in Henn yesterday for 2 innings. Who does Torre bring in today if they’re losing 8-2? Is that when he should bring in Proctor? As Garcia said, you win the games you can. Unfortunately for Joe, he has to nail down 100 wins a year – so yeah, he’s going to use his best relievers more than an 80 win team would.
Torre’s been doing this for 10 years+ with the Yanks and people still don’t realize that’s it’s been successful. Can anyone name a team that has gotten more out it’s bullpen over the past 10+ years than the Yankees have?
I wouldn’t panic yet – this could be a good way of getting Vizcaino in a game to see how he does against decent hitters (see: Twins) in a relatively low-pressure situation.
I’m sure we’ll see enough of the Henn’s and the Myers of the world when Pavagawa decides to make an early exit…
So who would you rather burnout: Your starting pitcher who’s getting gassed in the seventh, your star closer, or journeyman middle relievers who are not good enough to start or close?
Heck, I would love to see some complete games, but that’s the old fogey in me. These days that doesn’t happen — league wide. Just imagine the career Koufax could have had if he had a Proctor to take two innings every game.
Where does this justification come from that it’s okay if you burn a guy out as long as he’s not really all that good? For the record, Quantrill was not some journeyman bum and was coming off a stellar year, and Karsay was paid like a closer because he could have been a closer on another team. You’ll get no argument from me about Sturtze — he’s so overrated in the minds of Yankee fans it’s absurd (dude had ONE good month as a Yankee, and it had nothing to do with Torre overusing him — in fact, it hurt the team that Torre couldn’t see Sturtze was a total POS).
Anyway, my point was this: I want Torre to trust everyone in the bullpen and not freeze anyone out if they mess up one night. This pertains mostly to Henn and ‘Caino, who haven’t earned Joe’s “trust” yet.
Torre needs to do only two simple things to keep from burning out the bullpen: use everyone and don’t lose faith in people too quickly, and stop panicking every time a reliever lets a man on base. Torre really seems to start to sweat no matter what the lead is. He seems to think once a reliever gives up a few hits or lets men on, the game is about to get out of control. Sometimes that will happen, but most of the time a reliever, even if he doesn’t have his best stuff, can protect a four- or five-run lead.
So if Torre continues to use everyone out of the ‘pen (including Myers in blowouts) and remains calm while his middle guys give up a few runs in which we have a decent lead, I won’t complain about him again.
Honestly, aside from warming Bruney up in every single game they’ve played this year, so far Torre’s bullpen management hasn’t been horrid.
Anyone would have to acknowledge that Torre has burned up some arms, but his starting pitching hasn’t been that great for a while and there is little else to do. First time through the starting rotation this year was flat out awful. Second rotation is looking better and Wang is close to coming back. I like the idea of getting someone (or two) from our deep 4A talent pool and having them as the designated burnout guy for stretches of the season. Maybe Henn could be (or is) that guy for the first 30-45 days. When he starts to show wear, rotate in the next guy of that caliber. I prefer to use EDSP, Farns, and Mo only when it counts (i.e., up by 3 or less, or down by 2 or less in the 7th, 8th, and 9th). Sprinkle in Bruney and Myers as needed. Ranser, Bean, Beam, and a few of the other guys can give us Henn-like performance for 4 to 6 week stretches at a time. Mo won’t be abused (Torre isn’t that dumb). Farns isn’t durable enough to be abused. Scotty is the guy that Torre could, and shouldn’t, burn up. Let the B-Squad guys pitch until it starts to hurt.
When you have a big lead like the Yanks had yesterday, it really is a no-win situation for a manager. I bet a manager just wants the game to end and the other team to give up. Unfortunately that never happens.
Myers is a lefty specialist and Torre wants to use a player like Myers just for those situations – to pitch against a tough lefty. However, here’s where we people will get all pissed is if he brings in Myers to pitch one inning, he gets one out, allows a hit, gets another out, then allows a hit, then here comes the tough lefty. No reason to take out Myers now, when you have your lefty specialist on the mound. Myers hangs one, the tough lefty gets a homer and it is now a three run game.
If that were to happen then Torre is forced into using Proctor and/or Vizcaino, now Torre has to manage the game so that his team doesn’t blow the big lead as opposed to keeping them all relaxed and bringing his key guys into a low pressure situation. He just wants the game to end. I think a manager tries to keep a game with a big lead as easy as possible. I’m not talking about a blowout type of game where you have an 8+ run lead.
It is a hard thing to manage and you are damned if you do, damned if you don’t. But in the end, it’s all about the almighty ‘W’.