According to Yankee ‘fans’, who know more than anyboby else, Farnsworth should never pitch (when it counts, anyway); Vizcaino should never pitch (when it counts, anyway); DeSalvo should never come in, in long relief (when it counts, anyway). So who is Torre to use?

Then the same fans bitch & moan if Torre ‘overuses’ Proctor.

So who, exactly, should Torre bring in from the bullpen when a Clippard looks gassed? And even if Clippard had started the fifth, he wasn’t long for the game, having thrown 78 pitches in four (4) innings.

Yeah, it’s all Joe Torre’s fault the bullpen stinks.

Clueless fans.

Well, I’ll bring this to an end because whether you meant to or not your writing just reinforced my thought and there’s no reason for you to even care what I think of your thoughts.

Since in your words any positive Torre has is outweighed by his flaws I suppose any win by the Yankees is only because they’re able to overcome Torre’s gaffes.

I’ll take you at your word when you say you “watch other teams too and I just don’t see these repeated errors of judgement” but whenever I speak with fans of other teams every one of them criticize their manager’s in game decisions.

I respect your consistency. I hope whoever the next manager of the Yankees is gets a clean slate to begin with.

baileywalk–

I also tend to agree with much of what you say. Not everything is Torre’s fault, but I’ve noticed that he is NOT the manager you want when your pitchers are faltering. While I understand there was some concern for Clippard, I don’t think he should have been taken out. At least let him START the 5th. He couldn’t have done any worse than DeSalvo.

Can anyone explain to me why Vizcaino ever pitchers? He should be a situational pitcher–once in a while, he can get a couple people out, but I have yet to see him NOT blow up. when he comes into the game, I kiss it goodbye. I’m hoping he proves me wrong, soon.

I try to back up my anti-Torre-ish with substance. I don’t blame him for things outside of his control.

I think he makes some really odd moves, especially when it comes to pitchers (I watch other teams too and I just don’t see these repeated errors of judgement).

I don’t think Torre is the Yankees’ only problem. Today, for instance, when his pitcher gave him eight solid innings and he wasn’t forced into make decisions, he was fine. Today wasn’t about Torre — it was about the offense (and a bad strike-three call, but let’s not go there).

Torre has his moments. But I think his flaws outweigh any positives he has.

I only pointed out that I’m not alone in these sentiments because a majority opinion usually adds weight to someone’s judgement (so it’s not just one lone voice screaming in the dark, so to speak).

Baileywalk,

I don’t remember even hinting you’re the only one making anti-Torre statements. Where did that come from?

Since I think a lot of your opinions are worthwhile reading all I was mentioning was YOUR opinions lose a lot of relevance TO ME because of your constant Torre bashing, just as Steve’s impact TO ME lose relevance when he’s in an “A-Rod has caused all of the problems in Darfur” streak of threads.

Mr. Garcia suggested that every ball hit off the bat was smoked. Since some of the outs were pop-ups, I don’t consider those “smoked.”

And Damon should have caught two of the doubles, as was pointed out today on the broadcast.

And, RICH, seriously, now is not the time to pull the “you blame everything on Torre” card — I’m hardly the only one making these statements.

Pop ups Baileywalk?

Your intense dislike for Torre clouds your credibility. If Torre is as bad as you claim he is it should be sufficient to be accurate in your take-downs.

Those were shots off of Clippard.

but can you honestly say that you had confidence in Clip to go back out there in the 5th and shut them down? I really felt like any inning he was going to give up a crooked number.
——-

I don’t know about shutting them down, but I had confidence he had another inning in him, and I certainly have more confidence in Clip than DeSalvo and Vizcaino.

More and more, I find NoMaas the most logical voice on the ‘Net about Torre’s pitching use, so I’ll throw their quote on here for the hell of it:

Torre puts game out of reach, Yanks lose.

Would you pull a starter out of a one-run game because he allowed 3 runs in 4 innings on 76 pitches? That’s what Joe Torre did when he removed Tyler Clippard. Granted, it wasn’t a great performance by Clippard, but Torre’s hook was completely unneccessary. Clippard should have pitched at least another inning. It’s not like he was at a high pitch count. No need to pull a starter at that point.

What made the move even worse is that Torre removed Clippard to bring in the horrible Matt DeSalvo…in a one run game. We have no idea why DeSalvo is even on the roster with Chris Britton still rotting in the minors, but he is, and Joe brought him in. DeSalvo couldn’t record an out and allowed 3 ER on 2 hits and 2 BB. Then, the right-handed version of Felix Heredia was brought in and just like that, the game was over.

Nice job, Joe. Way to put your team in a big hole.

Two of the “doubles” were a result of Damon’s bad calves.

—————

One of the balls was one that Damon should have caught, it was the liner that hit off the front of his glove. But the two doubles were well hit balls. They were just out of his reach, but hardly routine and it didn’t seem like Damon was hampered by his bad calf.

We agree that Torre had a quick hook, but can you honestly say that you had confidence in Clip to go back out there in the 5th and shut them down? I really felt like any inning he was going to give up a crooked number.

The biggest thing Clip had going for him is that he didn’t walk a batter.

If you want to look at it on the bright side, we all agree the Yanks need to take 2 of 3. This was the one they lost and they’ll win the next two.

He is being fired essentially for not having the stones to fire Torre.
——

That’s exactly right.

“Every ball hit was smoked. There wasn’t a routine ball hit all game from him.”

I didn’t know pop-ups could be smoked. Two of the “doubles” were a result of Damon’s bad calves.

Are you deliberately exaggerating or what? I mean, you didn’t see ONE routine ball in that game? Dribblers in the infield, lazy fly balls, pop-ups.

Clip gave up a home run. And he wasn’t Santana out there (he’ll never be that). But he minimized damage twice. And it wasn’t like he was falling apart. What could it have hurt to go one more inning? And why was the bullpen warming up in the third? Torre was just looking to take him out of the game.

No, it’s not ALWAYS Torre’s fault, but sometimes he does make mistakes. He’s not infallible. On this night he took out a pitcher too soon and DeSalvo rewarded him with the inability to throw strikes and the game was over. Torre’s not the first person to make a bad move (the reason I object to the move is because it seemed to be based on his personal feelings toward the players and not what was best for the team).