~~~REALLY!?!!, so his 2001 and 2007 season were AVERAGE too?~~~

Yes, Javy Vazquez – 2001: 31 RSAA
2007: 23 RSAA

However, Javy Vazquez – 1998: -43 RSAA
1999: -4 RSAA, 2004: -10 RSAA, 2005: 0 RSAA, 2006: -3 RSAA

Or, do you not count those too?

This post is full of shit.

first of all.

“Javier Vazquez: Somewhat like Hernandez (above). Take away that 2003 season and his career line reads “Average career, at best.” (Side note: Between Livan and Javy, in 2003, what were the Expos feeding their starting pitchers that season?)”

REALLY!?!!, so his 2001 and 2007 season were AVERAGE too? in fact, his 2001 season was arguablly better than his 2003 season if we look at it (better WHIP, only slightly higher ERA and 7 less inning and more wins) both season also happens to be better than Wang 06 and 07 so Wangs just a average pitcher too? he’s not very consistent. but if your going to cherry pick you could also say that if you take out 04 he has 7 strait season of 200 IP+ and during tha time he had 2 average season 3 great season and 2 good season.

By your definition, here is the entire list of active MLB pitcher who are above average for their career.

Roger Clemens
Pedro Martinez
Gregg Maddux
John Smoltz
Curt Schilling
Mike Mussina
Tom Glavine
Randy Johnson
Roy Oswalt
Johan Santana
Brandon Webb

that’s it.. and i might have to think about Glavine too, since his career ERA+ is ONLY 119 , which is lower than Vazquez’s [b]average[/b] 2001 and 2007 seasons by a good margin.

and here is the list of entire list of guys in the history of the game who are somewhat good.

Walter Johnson
Gregg Maddux
Sandy Koufax
Roger Clemens
Lefty Grove
Pedro Martinez
Bob Gibson
Christy Mathewson

that’s it.

————————————————-
You also forgot to note one thing, Curt Schilling was not a very good pitching prospect, he was one of the rare cases of late boomers for SPs. in fact, as a prospect he was only about as good as Jeff Marquez… a B to B- prospect. he showed good stuff but never translate to numbers while the results were decent . he got hammered in some of the early call ups and then he was a decent relievers by 1990 the O’s thought they traded a decent reliever, a passable young 5th starter and a 4th OF that’s even worse than Melky Cabrera for a stud in Glenn Davis (who was essentially Mark Teixira of his day) only to have the reliever turn into a HOF SP, the 4th OF turn into a 300/300 guy (Finely )and the back rotation guy winning over 100 games.

~~~Looking only at the TOP 20 seasons doesn’t prove anything. ~~~

WHat “Top” Number do you think it should be? Again, I only went back to 1996. That’s very recent. Agreed, if I went back to 1973, or something, it should be deeper. But, when going back to 1996, do you need more than 20?

~~~Where are Johan Santana, Josh Beckett, C.C. Sabathia, Justin Verlander, jake Peavy, John lackey, Eric Bedard, Felix Hernandez, Dan Haren, Aaron Harang, Chris Young, Jeff Francis, Brad Penny, Smoltz etc Aka, the best pitchers in the game right now?~~~

Duh. Read the 4th line that I wrote on this, this AM: “I’m only using RH-pitchers because lefties reportedly take longer to develop.”

That’s why you don’t see CC, Johan, Zito, etc.

~~~Justin Verlander’s 2006 doesn’t show up on here~~~

18 RSAA in 186 IP. That’s nice. But, it’s hardly star stuff. In 2007, he had 22 RSAA in 201.2 IP. Again, very nice, but, not elite.

Let’s see. Where are Johan Santana, Josh Beckett, C.C. Sabathia, Justin Verlander, jake Peavy, John lackey, Eric Bedard, Felix Hernandez, Dan Haren, Aaron Harang, Chris Young, Jeff Francis, Brad Penny, Smoltz etc Aka, the best pitchers in the game right now?

Looking only at the TOP 20 seasons doesn’t prove anything.

Besides, Shilling wasn’t consistently good until his age 28 season, Ben Sheets STILL hasn’t put it together (a career 113 era+ is hardly STAR), as you mention you have a few who aren’t even good pitchers, and Meaddux, Clemens, and Pedro are three of the top 15 pitchers EVER. So all in all your list doesn’t actually really tell us anything. It says that if Hughes is going to stack up against three of the greatest, well, 2 of them got off to fast starts. It also says a bunch of pitchers take awhile to figure things out.

I really need to pick up a CBE…

~~Hughes and Chamberlain have proven themselves already~~

Really? Hughes has 72.2 IP and 2 RSAA. Chamberlain has 24 IP and 11 RSAA. What does 72 and 24 IP prove?

Also, top 20 pitchers by RSAA over the last 10 years is very lofty.

Justin Verlander’s 2006 doesn’t show up on here (he had 1.3 WHIP which isn’t so hot, but he had a strong season and was the ace of that staff in 06, no question.)

Steve – If you don’t want to be accused of cherry picking on this one, run the top 50 or 60. I bet you’ll see a lot of ace type pitchers on that list well into the 30s or 40s.

Hughes and Chamberlain have proven themselves already … Hughes had a setback because of injury but he did prove in the playoffs he was back in track. Your comment should apply to Ian Kennedy or Alan Horne.