A refresher post, from williamnyy;
“Aside from whether Cashman should be vilified over his creaky pen, I don’t necessarily agree with the premise…that the Yankees have always had a bad pen under his tenure. All you can expect is to have 2-3 reliable guys and maybe another decent option or two. For the most part, the Yankees have had that since Cashman took over.

In 1999, the Yankees had a pretty solid pen, and Cashman’s two additions were both strong contributors: Allen Watson and Jason Grimsely.

In 2000, the bullpen was solid again. The only major addition was Dwight Gooden, and he pitched pretty well in relief.

In 2001, once again, the bullpen was solid. The only major off season addition was Boehringer, who was actually very good before being trading mid season.

In 2002, the Yankees bullpen was actually pretty good (that year, the Yankees had one of their more stable staffs). The big addition was Karsay, and he performed pretty well in his first season.

In 2003, the big decisions were to let Mendoza and Stanton go (which, I think, ultimately proved to be correct). Hammond and Osuna, two of the replacements, were actually above average. Along with very good short-term contributions from guys like Heredia and Reyes, as well as fine bullpen work from Contreras, all in support of a dominant Mo, the Yankees bullpen wasn’t a major weakness.

In 2004, the Yankees bullpen was a two man show…Rivera and Gordon. Gordon was just good, he was great (ERA+ over 200). When you consider that Cashman also brought in Quantrill (coming off an ERA+ of 231), I think you’d have to say Cashman did pretty well that off season.

In 2005, Gordon was very good again, but you can lay some blame on Cashman for not finding another decent option. That year, the Yankees pen was abysmal.

In 2006, the Yankees big decision was to let Gordon walk (which turned out to be a good one). Unfortunately, Farnsworth, the man signed to replace Gordon, didn’t work out. I guess you could fault Cashman for that, but he was coming off a pretty good season. Personally, I thought he’d be able to handle set-up. Anyway, two righties did emerge to fill the gap, and both were acquired in very savy trades. They were Proctor and Bruney. At least for that year alone, Cashman turned nothing into 121 very good relief innings. I think that should be counted as a feather in his cap, not to mention having Small and Chacon basically save the season.

Finally, last year, the Yankees pen was an early mess, but doesn’t Cash deserve credit for Joba? Still, I’d agree that he could have come up with another body here.

If you look at it season by season, I don’t think the picture is as bleak as you suggest. Also, how many times have the Yankees been burnt in the post season by a bad pen? In 2002, the pen probably played the biggest negative role, but it was reliable guys like Stanton, Mendoza, El Duque and Karsay who coughed it up. In 2003, the pen did blow a huge game, but I think we can lay that on Torre’s doorstep. I don’t think Cashman intended to have Weaver used as a extra inning reliever when Mo was available. Again, 2004 saw some late blown leads, but Rivera was on the mound (one BS the result of Gordon putting the tying run on 3rd, and the other a pesky Dave Roberts). Finally, in 2005-2007, the starters were much more at fault than the bullpen.”

“Starting pitchers rarely hand off games to the closer. Middle relievers are increasingly determining outcomes of games. Yet, these guys are where they are for the reason that they are not good enough to start or close.

I’m not sure that any team has a solution for this yet.”

Heres the solution. You get better pitchers!! At all points. Starters relievers closers.

I used to disagree with you on Cashman. But this season has made me go over to your side. He has been flat out awful in bringing in talent especially pitching talent and hasn’t improved the big league club since 2003. It’s a joke.

50 other guys can do a better job at GM. The only pro he has on his belt right now is the last 3 drafts and really lets give that to Damon O.

There is a larger issue here that goes beyond the Yankees:

Starting pitchers rarely hand off games to the closer. Middle relievers are increasingly determining outcomes of games. Yet, these guys are where they are for the reason that they are not good enough to start or close.

I’m not sure that any team has a solution for this yet.

A-Rod was out at the plate so the Yanks really had an extra run they shouldn’t have had too.
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He was clearly out, but then again if MLB would play by its own rules, there is no doubt that they would have scored a run on the ground rule double. Bad calls and rules are so ubiquitous that they tend to cancel themselves out. That said, there’s no excuse for the sloppy play overall.

I thought they played sloppy last night in general(basepaths, defense) and that’s what cost them the game.

Farnsworth sucks too and the 8th inning is definitely a problem but A-Rod was out at the plate so the Yanks really had an extra run they shouldn’t have had too. They were lucky they were even in a tied game at that point considering their bad play and the bad call at the plate with A-Rod.

Can’t argue with anything here. 57 games into the season and Girardi still seems to be feeling his way around. It seems that even though he has the parts, he’s not comfortable with them executing the plays that need to be made. With all the salaries coming off the books, it wouldn’t be surprising to see a significant roster upheaval over the winter to give Girardi a team he feels he can win with.

This is like watching the teams of the mid 80s. You know they should be better, but they’re not. Very frustrating.

well said, Zach.

it seems to me that the easy thing to do is criticize the bullpen.

but when you look at the way its been managed, i think that the options are there to get the job done, just that the tools arent being used to bring out their full potential.

“The Yankees lost these four games because their pitchers either could not keep a close game close or because their pitchers could not hold a lead when it was presented. Sure, you cannot win everyday. But, it’s not a reach to say that the Yankees should have won at least one of these four recent losses – and maybe two. The key has been the bullpen. If the Yankees had better arms in the pen then maybe a tired Rasner and a tired Pettitte do not allow those late inning runs (in their losses). And, maybe you don’t allow guys like La Troy Hawkins and Kyle Farnsworth to blow games for you too.”

-Steve, there is a blatant fallacy in this argument. The Yankees did not lose any of these games “because” of the pitching. They lost them in part due to pitching, in part due to hitting, in part due to bad management, and in part due to the other teams.

There is no doubt that the BP has not been great, but there is also no doubt that the BP has not been handled well at all. Why Hawkins is still on the team, why Britton never pitches, why Ohlendorf is still used for more than 1 innings, why Farnsworth is trusted in the 8th inning–These are all Girardi’s decision’s that have severely hurt the BP…

But the last two games are as much on the offense as the pitching. The Rasner game they didn’t do squat, and last night they had no business not blowing Hernandez out, considering how many people they left on base or erased via DP. Sure, Pettitte and Farnsworth basically sucked, but the offense let the team down just as much…