• Schilling’s Cooked

    Posted by on June 20th, 2008 · Comments (14)

    The end is now here for Boston’s Curt Schilling.

    It’s interesting to look at the Red Sox’ pitching today. Schilling was a non-factor this season. So far, Clay Buchholz has been a bust. Josh Beckett has been just “O.K.” But, what’s saved Boston has been the pitching of Daisuke Matsuzaka, Jon Lester, and (to an extent) Justin Masterson.

    In some ways, you can almost say that the difference between the Yankees and the Red Sox is that Daisuke Matsuzaka is not Kei Igawa; and, that Jon Lester is doing what the Yankees expected Phil Hughes to do (this season).

    Comments on Schilling’s Cooked

    1. hopbitters
      June 20th, 2008 | 11:07 am

      My personal opinion of him aside, he should be an easy HoFer if he’s truly done. Then again, the writers tend to screw up the easy ones. And the hard ones. And the ones in between.

    2. butchie22
      June 20th, 2008 | 11:13 am

      Give credit where credit is due, Theo and Co have done a much better job of evaluating pitching than the Yankees have in the recent past. Beckett has been OK, but has been superhuman in the post season. Dice-K has been much better than expected and Lester is pitching like a number 2. Even without Schilling this team can take it all, very easily. On the other hand, the Yanks still have question marks. Yeah, I know that Andy, Moose, Raz and Joba are doing a decent job all around but the Yanks have no 1a (although Joba looks like he will become that guy) and had to bring back Ponson, who is the biggest clubhouse cancer this side of Bedard and Milton Bradley. Speaking of which, Milton Bradley speaking of Ponson: “That guy has issues!” MB saying that someone else has issues, Ponson is really worse than I have ever thought.

    3. baileywalk
      June 20th, 2008 | 11:27 am

      Butchie, give me a break. How does this prove the Red Sox are better at evaluating pitchers? The Yankees wanted Beckett, too, but the Marlins wanted Wang and Cano. Would you have made that deal? The Yankees bid a lot of money on Dice-K, but the Sox bid more — twenty million dollars more, if I remember correctly (more than anyone thought a team would go).

      Lester hasn’t been a number two, and Joba is better than him anyway.

      Plus a guy like Rasner is in the rotation — someone claimed off of waivers. That’s an incredible pickup by the team.

      And what about the bullpen? Jose Veras, another person no one ever heard of, is pitching important innings. Edwar Ramirez, an independent-league pitcher, is pitching well for them.

      And is Curt Schilling a HoFer? Tough call, but he probably won’t get in with only 216 wins. It’s just too bad he wasted away the early part of his career. He was one of the best power/control pitchers of all time, and obviously a tremendous post-season pitcher. But I don’t think he’s getting in.

    4. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      June 20th, 2008 | 12:03 pm

      Lester hasn’t been a number two, and Joba is better than him anyway.

      Give me a break. Jon Lester is NUMBER 7 in the American League in ERA, at 3.18. No one on the Yankees is within a half a run of that number. He’s gone ten straight starts allowing 3 or fewer earned runs and has compiled an ERA barely over 2 in that streak.

      I’d say every team in the league would like a “Number two” who has compiled that record to date.

      Schilling will get more support for the HoF than Moose ever imagines. The only way Moose goes in is if he somehow manages to get to 300 wins so that he can go in under the Don Sutton “I was never that great but I was pretty good and I got to 300 wins” Rule.

    5. butchie22
      June 20th, 2008 | 12:09 pm

      Baileywalk, talk about being a homer! Are you serious? I’m a Red Sox hater BUT I’m a baseball fan, there is no way that you can spin the success of the Red Sox pitching into some kind of mess.Let’s look at some facts:

      2004 The Yanks get Vasquez and the Sox get Schilling, who was the dog in the ACLS and who was the hero? Schilling is a folk hero on that ACLS and World Series Win. Also the Hall of Fame, Schill is in. That 2004 victory over the Yanks and Cards ensured that fact. There are other pitchers like Coney who have close numbers BUT Coney didn’t reverse the Curse, Schill did. And you are right ,he was light sout in the post season. Imagine if Schill ended up with the Yanks instead of Boston…..what a different world that would be.

      2007 The Yanks get Igawa and the Sox get Dice-K, how did Igawa do relative to Dice-K? BTW Dice-K has one more ring than Igawa does and most of the people on this Yankee team.

      Rasner is a nice story, but he was never a great pitcher up here before , was he? And relative to his past performance, do you think he’s going to hold up? I hope he does ,but that start before last was a bad sign that he is coming down to earth.

      Lester has been pitching very well this season as is Masterson. How are Hughes and Kennedy doing? I’ll answer that for you: they are on the DL! Before they were on the DL this year ,they didn’t even win a game. The Highes-Kennedy experiment was a failure. Buchholz is stinking up the joint, but they have so much pitching in their system that they could trade a Gabbard last year and call up a Masterson just in case. What have the Yanks done when Wang goes down, they call in a cancer-in-the-clubhouse ,Ponson instead of Igawa and their AAA corps in.

      AS for Joba vs Lester. You don’t have a big enough sample set to make a credible enough argument for Joba either way. I hope that he will be a 1a and things look promising BUT it’s too early to even see after only what 3 starts? As a starter ,Lester has a WS win on his resume and has held up this year, we’ve seen more of him. As for Joba, I need some more time,remember how good Hughes and Kennedy looked last year? What happened to those two,Cashman was betting his season on those two.

      One last thing, the Red Sox have a legitimate 1a pitcher which the Yanks do not: Beckett. Dice-K could be considered a 2a. Who is the current 1a and 2a on the Yankees? Pettitte might be a 3a,Wang a 2c, and Moose a 2b, where is the ace? And the difference has been in the playoffs, where the difference in the last five years has been two rings for the Red Sox and none for the Bombers. Joba might be that shutdown pitcher But I can’t don’t know yet. I saw Carmona swarmed by bugs and Joba swarmed by bugs and Carmona held up and Joba didn’t so ,I have no idea how Joba the starter will do in the post season.

    6. TurnTwo
      June 20th, 2008 | 12:40 pm

      Lester is a possible #2, absolutely solid #3. even a Yankees fan needs to admit that.

      its not as simple as the Saux got Dice-K and the Yankees got Igawa. It’s not like the Yankees had no clue who DiceK was, the Saux just ridiculously blew everyone out of the water with that posting fee, hence he’s in Boston and not NY.

      and who cares about Ponson’s issues? prototypical low risk-decent reward proposition… Ponson makes a start or two and provides solid, league average innings? it cost the yankees nothing.

      he acts up, creates issues on the team or in the clubhouse, you cut his ass, and move on. no harm, no foul.

    7. baileywalk
      June 20th, 2008 | 12:48 pm

      Butchie, sorry, but I’m not reading that novel you just wrote. It gives me a headache. Anyway, my point was this: the Red Sox rotation doesn’t prove they are better evaluators, which is what you said. Why? Because Beckett and Dice-K could just as easily be Yankees. But the Red Sox won out. So they had the same “evaluations.” And Joba is better than Lester, or any other young Red Sox pitcher, so if you want to compare high draft-choice pitchers, the Yankees win that battle. I never said the Sox rotation was a “mess” — I’m glad you feel free to invent things like that. I think the Sox are probably the best team in baseball. But I find what you said about their evaluation of pitching over the Yankees’ to be absurd.

      OnceIWasAYankeeFan, I’m really not interested in the opinion of a know-it-all Sox fan who comes here to defend them all the time. It’s beyond irritating that everything becomes a Sox-v.-Yankee thing with you. So someone says that Schilling might not get into the Hall of Fame and you said he’ll get more support than Mussina. What does Mussina have to do with anything? Why are you even mentioning him?

      I said Schilling was one of the greatest power/control pitchers in history and he was great, but like Ron Guidry, he waited too long to be brilliant. He might not get into the Hall. And you couldn’t be more wrong, in your ridiculous Sox-blinders sort of way, about Mussina. His numbers match some of the best in baseball and he has a much greater chance of reaching the Hall than Schilling does (not that I’m saying he shouldn’t get in, but the voters are hung up on win totals). If Mussina sticks around, he has a chance to go 3000+ strikeouts/-1000 walks (like Schilling), which is amazing. And Mussina did everything in the AL East against the DH, which cannot be discounted.

    8. butchie22
      June 20th, 2008 | 1:36 pm

      Bailey, you seem to have write a novel as well! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. My assertions are in no way absurd,but true. A comment like that could only come from someone who is blindly a homer and not a baseball fan Ridiculous….. How have the Yankees’ pitching done relative to the Red Sox in the postseason the last 5 years. Red Sox two WS series rings, the Yankees left the first round only once in that time.The Red Sox have drafted very well pitching wise and their bounty has resulted in a first place finish (so far) this year. This is the problem with a lot of so-called Yankee fans. These shortcomings that they have are glaring relative to other teams in baseball but pretty much in realtion to the Red Sox, their archrival who have very smart baseball people who have turned around that frachise AND now they are the team to beat.

      Turntwo thanks for your balanced comments. The problem with the whole Dice-K/Igawa scam is that the Yankees settled for second or third(when you consider Lilly being out there among others) best instead of just not going after Igawa. Cashman’s excuse was the money factor, that Lilly was more expensive so on so forth. Lilly had the experience in the AL East with both the Jays and the Yanks and Igawa was an unknown quantity. Lilly would have cost 40 mill and Igawa cost 20 mill plus the posting fee of 26 mill. That was bad judgement by Cashman.

      Once I was a Yankee Fan, I agree with your comments about Lester but I think Mussina has a chance to be in the Hall of Fame, if only for the the amount of wins he’s amassed. To give Moose credit he’s done a really good job this year and if he finishes off his career ,this would be a nice end to his career if he sustains it.

    9. baileywalk
      June 20th, 2008 | 1:52 pm

      Butchie, I was just being polite. It’s not the length of your posts but your lack of grammar — there are times when I don’t want to sit and decipher what looks like the result of a car running over the keys of a typewriter.

      You’re straying from the original point, which is what people normally do when they can’t back up what they said. (And also personally attack people — since I’m now a “so-called” Yankee fan and a “homer.”) YOU SAID — stick with me now — that Beckett, Dice-K and Lester proved the Red Sox have been better at evaluating pitchers than the Yankees. I said this is absurd, and it is, because the Yankees tried to get both Beckett and Dice-K, but couldn’t match the Sox, who went above and beyond to get them. So it seems that in your mind if the Yankees gave up Wang and Cano for Beckett and gave up sixty million dollars for Dice-K, they would be better “evaluators” of pitching talent. And that, in my opinion, is stupid.

      I never said the Sox didn’t have better pitching. I never said the Sox weren’t a better team right now. I didn’t get into any of that, in fact, but you seem to like to put words in my mouth.

      But don’t mind me — I’m just a “homer”… because anyone with an opinion differing from yours is a homer, apparently.

    10. gphunt
      June 20th, 2008 | 2:11 pm

      I, personally, am miffed at the Yankees for not picking up Bucholtz in the 2005 draft. They could have grabbed him or Lester, so I’ll concede a little talent evaluation to the Sox there. However, the Sox passed on Joba the following year.

    11. hopbitters
      June 20th, 2008 | 2:29 pm

      Schilling has had a better career than Mussina (from a purely pitching point of view, ignoring non-measures like “wins”), but the difference is not that dramatic. I’m not a huge fan of Mussina, but his numbers are in the realm of what should be considered for the HoF. Of course, you can never tell what will actually happen with the voting.

    12. Zack
      June 20th, 2008 | 3:00 pm

      gphunt: Sure, they could have had them. And the Sox could have had Joba and Kennedy. And lots of people could have had lots of people. Water under the bridge…

      I’m not going to get into the Sox-vs yanks absurdity here, but note a few things:

      1) If Schilling is a HOF pitcher, than so is Moose, period. If either one gets in, the hall is overlooking certain “traditional” qualifications and should therefore do the same for the other. Schilling had a good career with tremendous #s, but as Bailywalk mentioned, it was too short to really log the value needed to be a no-doubter. However, Schill has managed to promote himself like no other, so I am sure he will lobby hard for himself.

      2) Steve, you wrote “In some ways, you can almost say that the difference between the Yankees and the Red Sox is that Daisuke Matsuzaka is not Kei Igawa; and, that Jon Lester is doing what the Yankees expected Phil Hughes to do (this season).”

      –I’m not really sure what that means. Igawa and Dice-K have nothing to do with each other right now. Other than Igawa perhaps being a response to Dice-K, at this point they are totally and utterly unrelated. And sure, Lester is doing great, but I don’t think anyone expected Hughes to do that THIS YEAR. Look at Lester’s career. This is his third ML season, its ridiculous to compare them. Lester SHOULD be outperforming Hughes all thing considered. If anything, lester and Pettitte should be compared as they are the two lefties…

      3) the Sox rotation now is Beckett, Wakefield, Lester, Masterson, and Dice-K (coming back). The Yanks is Pettitte, Moose, Joba, Rasner, and Giese. Obviously a week ago things looked better, but I wouldn’t really say that the difference has anything to do with Lester and Dice-K/Igawa and Hughes, and everything to do with injuries. the Yanks have now lost 3 of their SPs to injuries, two of whom are down for a long time. Plus, their would-be heir, Horne, also was lost for a long time. Can you imagine if the Sox lost Beckett for the rest of the season?

      4) The Sox BP, aside from Papelbon and Lopez, has been pretty wretched as well. IF you are going to heap praise on the Sox for their talent evaluation, you have to knock them for the BP management. Aside from last season, they have put together some pretty bad bullpens in the past few seasons. And on top of that, outside of last season, some pretty bad starting rotations as well..

    13. butchie22
      June 20th, 2008 | 3:26 pm

      First it was a novel, then a car wreck on the typewriter? I really don’t get that at all! You’re losing me, mate. BUT you really you lost me with not realizing that Lester is pitching like a Number 2. That was rich ! Joba is better than Lester? AS it stands now, NO WAY…..but maybe that MIGHT happen in the future. I need to see Joba pitch in the playoffs again to make a better assessment. Remember that Letser won a World Series game and Joba blew one in relief in the playoffs. I think that the truth hurts and that might be the problem.

      I also have a problem with the price/performance ratio of the Yankees staff relative to payroll. The Yankees spend 209 million ( that’s before being pro-rated) and God knows how much on the draft. Toronto spends 100 million a year and has a 3.64 ERA, Tampa spends 42 million a year and has a 3.83 ERA , and Boston spends 133 million and has a
      3.84 ERA. The Yankees have a 4.17 ERA . What is wrong with this picture? Could it be that the team with the largest payroll has not drafted and selected the best free agent pitchers? In terms of this division , they have the most resources by far but are fourth in ERA. Nothing to be proud of folks.

      Lately, the Cashman regime has tried to make amends by drafting, restocking the system , and signing free agents. So far, that has resulted in a mixed result at best. Yeah, everybody wanted Pavano , but who actually signed him? The so-called Hughes-Kennedy experiment was an absolute disaster. Thank God some of the more intelligent people wanted to move Joba, although it was a very risky move. And that move was done in desperation because the farm system had no one that was ready to come up. All in all given their resources, the Yankees have done an OK job because the ultimate goal is to win a World Series. Presently constructed this team doesn’t have the 1a, 2a pitchers to make that WS win happen.

    14. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      June 20th, 2008 | 3:49 pm

      Buchholz is a bust … Buchholz is stinking up the joint

      These are highly selective comments. Up until his last two major league starts, Buchholz had an ERA of 3.71. He had exactly one poor start – the second one against the Yankees – and had an eight inning, three hit, two run loss, a six inning, five hit shutout, and two other games in which he pitched six complete or 5+ and allowed one run.

      Basically three bad starts blew up his stats – and in one of those, his torn fingernail kept him from throwing his fastball. In the other five starts he compiled an ERA of 2.10, averaging six innings per start.

      So in short, if you think that Buchholz is a bust or will stink up the joint when he returns, think again. Hughes and Kennedy stunk up the joint. Buchholz had a couple of bad starts.

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