• Please, Let’s Pass On This Retread

    Posted by on June 26th, 2008 · Comments (20)

    Via the Houston Chronicle with a hat tip to Baseball Think Factory

    Already upset about being demoted from the starting rotation to the bullpen, Astros pitcher Shawn Chacon was suspended indefinitely Wednesday night after a heated exchange with general manager Ed Wade turned violent an hour before the Astros played the Texas Rangers at Minute Maid Park.

    Chacon, who realizes he might not play again this season, admitted he lost his cool and threw Wade to the ground after Wade insisted he go to manager Cecil Cooper’s office. The argument took place in the team’s dining room, which Chacon refused to leave when asked to report to Cooper.

    Shawn Chacon once pitched for the Yankees – like Sidney Ponson. Chacon has now worn out his welcome with his current team, in Texas – like Sidney Ponson did (also in Texas). They Yankees recently re-acquired Ponson…in fact, he’s starting for them against the Mets tomorrow. Will the Yankees now do the same with Chacon…and have him return to New York?

    Gosh, I hope not. But, then again, you could have knocked me over with a feather when the Yanks announced that Ponson was coming back…

    Comments on Please, Let’s Pass On This Retread

    1. JeremyM
      June 26th, 2008 | 8:27 am

      I always kind of liked Chacon, especially after the performance he gave in 2005, but I don’t want him back and I hate to see him resorting to throwing a GM to the ground. Pathetic.

    2. Raf
      June 26th, 2008 | 10:40 am

      I hate to see him resorting to throwing a GM to the ground. Pathetic.
      —————-
      I’m not going to rush to judgement; Chacon, to my knowledge, hasn’t been a troublemaker. Who knows if Wade did or said something to set him off.

    3. hopbitters
      June 26th, 2008 | 11:14 am

      Most GMs could use a little throwing around.

    4. MJ
      June 26th, 2008 | 11:19 am

      I’m not going to rush to judgement; Chacon, to my knowledge, hasn’t been a troublemaker. Who knows if Wade did or said something to set him off.
      ————————————
      I agree in general that we don’t know both sides of the story. I also agree that there’s a good chance Wade shares some level of responsibility in this incident, in the same way PJ Carlessimo shares responsibility in the Latrell Sprewell choking incident 10 years ago.

      Having said that, assault is never a justifiable response, no matter what Wade may have said or done. You only use your hands in self-defense.

    5. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      June 26th, 2008 | 12:28 pm

      Carlessimo shared responsibility? For telling a player to leave the court?

      Here is Chacon’s side of the story, according to the Houston paper’s report:

      ************************************

      According to Chacon, he was in the dining room after batting practice when Cooper asked him to come to his office.

      Words exchanged
      “I said, ‘What do you want to speak to me about?’ ” Chacon said. “He said, ‘We just want to talk to you.’ I said, ‘Anything you can say, you can say to me right here. I don’t want to go to the office.’ He looked at me, and I said, ‘There’s nothing for me to say to you guys.’ And I don’t think whatever they had to say to me they were going to make me happy. I didn’t want to get in a closed-room conversation.”

      “I sat down to eat, and Ed Wade came to me and very sternly said, ‘You need to come with me to the office.’ I said, ‘For what? I don’t want to go to the office with you and Cooper.’ And I said, ‘You can tell me whatever you’ve got to tell me right here.’ He’s like, ‘Oh, you want me to tell you right here?’ And I said, ‘Yeah.’ I’m not yelling. I’m calm.”

      It deteriorated quickly afterward, according to Chacon.

      “He started yelling and cussing,” Chacon said of Wade. “I’m sitting there, and I said to him very calmly, ‘Ed, you need to stop yelling at me. Then I stood up and said, ‘You better stop yelling at me.’ I stood up. He continued and was basically yelling and stuff and was like, ‘You need to (expletive) look in the mirror.’ So at that point I lost my cool, and I grabbed him by the neck and threw him to the ground. I jumped on top of him, because at that point I wanted to beat his (behind). Words were exchanged.”

      **********************

      You wanna say Wade shares any blame?

    6. Raf
      June 26th, 2008 | 12:49 pm

      You wanna say Wade shares any blame?
      ————
      Sure, this didn’t happen in a vacuum. As the cliche goes, it takes two to tango.

    7. Raf
      June 26th, 2008 | 12:51 pm

      Having said that, assault is never a justifiable response, no matter what Wade may have said or done. You only use your hands in self-defense.
      ————–
      You’d like to think that’s the way it works, unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way.

    8. MJ
      June 26th, 2008 | 1:37 pm

      Carlessimo shared responsibility? For telling a player to leave the court?
      ———————————–
      Do you know for a fact that this is all he said? Do you know the tone of voice he used? The language he used? Did he use any epithets? I’ll bet you don’t know any of that. For that reason I maintain that Carlessimo DID share responsibility.

      Raf’s right, it takes two to tango. PJ didn’t deserve to get choked but he didn’t just innocently ask a player to leave the court.

    9. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      June 26th, 2008 | 1:49 pm

      As far as I am concerned, when a coach, manager, or boss (GM) tells you to do something (go to the office for a meeting, leave the court) you do it. Doesn’t matter how they say it. You do it.

      Attacking your coach is assault. Sprewell should have been arrested and charged, not traded away. Chacon could be arrested and charged. MLB should suspend him for a month or two.

    10. MJ
      June 26th, 2008 | 2:36 pm

      As far as I am concerned, when a coach, manager, or boss (GM) tells you to do something (go to the office for a meeting, leave the court) you do it. Doesn’t matter how they say it. You do it.
      ———————————-
      That’s far too simplistic. If your boss asked you to do something, you’d do it. But if he asked you to do somethign and then told you that you were a worthless, piece of $hit Red Sox fan who deserved to get beaten like a rented mule, you’d still do what your boss asked you to do? You would sit there and take that abuse without so much as a peep?

      There aren’t too many people who would accept that kind of treatment. It still doesn’t warrant an assault but no one would fault you for standing up for yourself and asserting your rights as a human being.

    11. Don
      June 26th, 2008 | 2:50 pm

      No excuses for Chacon, none.

    12. Raf
      June 26th, 2008 | 2:52 pm

      As far as I am concerned, when a coach, manager, or boss (GM) tells you to do something (go to the office for a meeting, leave the court) you do it. Doesn’t matter how they say it. You do it.
      ———–
      And as far as I’m concerned, as soon as they get verbally abusive, all bets are off. If you’re going to talk tough, then you better be able to back it up.

      According to Chacon, he warned Wade twice. Wade didn’t listen. Wade got choked. Charge him for assault and battery, whatever. Doesn’t change what happened. Doesn’t make it right either.

      But, if Wade has any sense, he’ll probably think twice, or maybe chooses his words a bit more carefully when dealing with a player.

      Given that MLB is a closed institution, I doubt that charges will be filed. Players have tangled with each other (Crisp-Shields), players have tangled with managers (Dibble-Piniella), players have tangled with coaches (Randle-Lucchino), players have tangled with umpires (Alomar-Hirschbeck). To my knowledge, nothing other than a suspension has come out of it.

    13. June 26th, 2008 | 3:54 pm

      ~~Chacon, to my knowledge, hasn’t been a troublemaker. ~~

      IIRC, part of the reason why the Yankees were happy to send him packing in 2006, in addition to his lousy pitching, was his attitude.

    14. butchie22
      June 26th, 2008 | 4:28 pm

      My Philly cousins hate Ed Wade. He is a brute and has won nothing. He is a nobody who thinks he is a somebody. Chacon overeacted and should have used words instead of violence. AS for SC, he was traded for a reason the first time and there is no need to revisit his second year mediocrity.

    15. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      June 26th, 2008 | 4:32 pm

      That’s far too simplistic. If your boss asked you to do something, you’d do it. But if he asked you to do somethign and then told you that you were a worthless, piece of $hit Red Sox fan who deserved to get beaten like a rented mule, you’d still do what your boss asked you to do? You would sit there and take that abuse without so much as a peep?

      ____________________________

      And what do we know was said between Wade and Chacon? A few expletives? The main thing known is “look in the (expletive) mirror”.

      Perhaps the answer is that whenever a manager or a GM wants to have a sit-down with a player, they should bring some big beefy guys from security with them. You know, just to make sure the player does what is asked, peacefully.

      The simple fact is that his manager said “I want to talk to you in my office” and this fool said “whatever you want to say you can say here”. WRONG answer. Completely unprofessional and classless. Now the GM is called in – and he gets the same treatment. I don’t care what was said – Chacon is guilty of assault and should be arrested. Those other cases were on the field or in the clubhouse, spur of the moment acts. This is a player attacking a front office official for god’s sake.

    16. butchie22
      June 26th, 2008 | 4:37 pm

      Once was , both parties are at fault BUT verbally assaulting a player from a no win loser GM is a bit much. hE was in Philly for 8 years and never went to the playoffs. He has no right to be nasty to a player. By the same token , Chacon should have called him names BUT Wade is no angel in this AT ALL.

    17. MJ
      June 26th, 2008 | 5:05 pm

      And what do we know was said between Wade and Chacon?
      ——————————–
      We don’t know what was said. That’s exactly why I’m saying that you can’t take such a simplistic approach to your analysis of the situation.

    18. Raf
      June 26th, 2008 | 5:28 pm

      The simple fact is that his manager said “I want to talk to you in my office” and this fool said “whatever you want to say you can say here”. WRONG answer. Completely unprofessional and classless. Now the GM is called in – and he gets the same treatment. I don’t care what was said – Chacon is guilty of assault and should be arrested. Those other cases were on the field or in the clubhouse, spur of the moment acts. This is a player attacking a front office official for god’s sake.
      —————-
      “For god’s sake?” Calm down, it isn’t that serious. Front office official or not, history has shown that charges probably will not be pressed. This really isn’t any different from the previous examples I cited.

      Unprofessional? Maybe. Classless? Hardly. If it were that big a deal, whatever that was could’ve been left unsaid, and Chacon could’ve been released right there on the spot, without the histrionics from all parties involved.

      Cooper should’ve grown a pair and told him. Walked away and let him deal with the news, instead of escalating the problem to management. Wade had the same opportunity presented to him, he apparently decided to go on a rant, instead of using the double-triplespeak that we’re (or at least I am) accustomed to from those in management. According to Chacon, he was calm up until Wade got abusive (taking in mind the Rashomon effect). Chacon presumably gets in Wade’s face, and instead of controlling himself, maybe walking away, Wade CONTINUES to run his mouth. Wade gets choked. He should’ve seen it coming.

    19. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      June 26th, 2008 | 7:39 pm

      It’s absolutely classless, and Sox fans had a similar experience a couple of years back with one Jay Payton, signed to be a fourth outfielder, pissed off about it, went on a rant against Francona in the dugout. Because he was angry? No, because he figured if he pitched a public fit and yelled at his manager, he’d get sent out of town quicker.

      And he was right.

    20. Raf
      June 27th, 2008 | 10:50 am

      No, because he figured if he pitched a public fit and yelled at his manager, he’d get sent out of town quicker.
      ——————
      While I appreciate your mindreading skills, I’m going to have to call shenanigans.

      Payton isn’t the first player to throw a tantrum (public or otherwise) over playing time nor will he be the last.

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