• Adiós Manny!

    Posted by on July 31st, 2008 · Comments (14)

    The Yankees play the Boston Red Sox six more times this season. And, now, New York won’t have to deal with Manny Ramirez when they face the Sox.

    This afternoon, Boston traded Ramirez, Brandon Moss, Craig Hansen and $7 million – via a three-way deal with the Dodgers and Pirates – in order to acquire Jason Bay.

    Manny, I won’t miss you…neither will Mike Mussina and a bunch of other Yankees pitchers.

    Comments on Adiós Manny!

    1. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      July 31st, 2008 | 5:32 pm

      I’m surprised you didn’t mention the irony that after trying to deal with Manny for so many years, now Joe Torre gets to pencil him into the lineup. He must be ecstatic.

      Me, I’m just worn out and ticked off. Not at losing Manny, because he had created a completely untenable situation. I don’t know what would have happened had they not moved him, and I’m glad I won’t find out.

      No, what annoys me is giving up Moss, who is likely to be a star in the future. He’s got more talent than David Murphy, who’s putting up pretty good numbers in Texas. They’ll regret trading him.

      So, yeah, celebrate my Yankee friends. Manny won’t terrorize you any more – unless he signs with someone in the AL for next year.

    2. antone
      July 31st, 2008 | 6:06 pm

      Jason Bay is no Manny Ramirez…I love the fact of facing the Red Sox without Manny. I’m sure Mike Mussina is loving this too.

      Jason Bay may be good but he’s never played any place like Boston and he’s never had to perform at a high level in a pressure filled situation and definitely not in the playoffs. Manny has and he’s proven to be a great player under those conditions and I don’t think you can replace that.

      RedSoxFan…the Red Sox created this mess in the first place but putting up with Manny’s crap all these years and not disciplining him years ago.

      I think they just didn’t want to pay him next year and both the Red Sox and Manny knew it and he wasn’t happy about it and they didn’t want to create a firestorm, so they shipped him out of town ASAP.

    3. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      July 31st, 2008 | 7:38 pm

      RedSoxFan…the Red Sox created this mess in the first place but putting up with Manny’s crap all these years and not disciplining him years ago.

      ______________________________________

      Manny has acted out before and always ultimately came around. What makes you possibly believe that his character would change if he had been “disciplined”?

      NO. What changed is that Manny went ballistic because he figured it would force them to act. And it did. He’s never previously come close to ripping ownership like he did. In fact, his only reason for wanting a trade in the past was dealing with the fans and not being able to go out in public. The simple fact is that everything changed because he wants that next big contract, suspected the Sox wouldn’t pick up the option, and new he’d be a more attractive free agent at 37 than at 38.

      ____________________________

      I think they just didn’t want to pay him next year and both the Red Sox and Manny knew it and he wasn’t happy about it and they didn’t want to create a firestorm, so they shipped him out of town ASAP.

      ____________________________

      No decision was made about next year and wasn’t going to be until after the season. That’s the smart management tactic but Manny couldn’t handle it. Ultimately he was annoyed that they picked up Pedro’s option before they had to but wouldn’t pick up his.

      And finally, Bay doesn’t replace Manny except in left field, where his defense will be a huge improvement. He won’t bat fourth, that will be Youkilis or Lowell. The way Youkilis is hitting, I don’t think that walking Papi will be a great move.

    4. July 31st, 2008 | 8:38 pm

      ~~The way Youkilis is hitting, I don’t think that walking Papi will be a great move.~~

      Comparing Youk to Manny is like comparing Gary Roenicke to Edgar Martinez. I’ll take my chances facing Youk, over Manny, any and everyday.

    5. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      July 31st, 2008 | 9:42 pm

      Youkilis OPS+, 2008: 138
      Ramirez OPS+, 2008: 140

      You want to tell me that’s a truly significant difference? Youkilis in 2008 is clearly Manny’s equal. If you’d take off your “Manny kills the Yankees” glasses you’d realize that.

      Furthermore, its a false choice to pitch to Manny or to pitch to Youkilis after Papi. Its Youk, or its Lowell or its Drew, and right now the obvious choice is Youk, whose OPS+ is virtually exactly the same as Manny.

    6. antone
      July 31st, 2008 | 10:07 pm

      Youkilis usually fades in the second half of the season though, so you can’t expect him to keep his current level of play up:

      1st half: .308 ACG .400 OBP .495 SLG .895 OPS
      2nd half: .247 AVG .351 OBP .392 SLG .743 OPS

      He has in no way shape or form shown that he can be as consistent as Manny throughout the season.

      Even if he does replace Manny statistically, he still would have to replace him on a situation to situation basis…meaning when the chips are on the line then I’d much rather face Youkilis than Manny.

      You can’t prove anything you said about Manny and why he did all the crap he did before..that is all hearsay and rumors what you said…

      and YES i do think if they didn’t let Manny get out of line before then they wouldn’t have problems with him now because he either would have to get his act together or he would have been shipped out of town a long time ago and they probably could have gotten equal value for him instead of having to give up Manny, Hanson, and Moss just to get Bay.

      The Red Sox can’t have it both ways…they can’t be in favor of Manny being Manny and then make a big stink when he does something they don’t like

      You can’t tell me as a Red Sox fan that you are happy that Manny is no longer on the team unless you really think he was going to sabotage the team.

    7. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      July 31st, 2008 | 11:06 pm

      I absolutely believe he was going to sabotage the team and season. He would have acted out again or he would have come up with a new injury and insisted he couldn’t play. Let them suspend him, let the union fight for him in arbitration (he’d undoubtedly win since no one can prove he isn’t hurting). He would not have played more than a handful of the remaining 50+ games. And where would that have left us? On the phone with Bonds’ agent, that’s where. And otherwise up a creek since the deadline is past.

      As for getting Manny to straighten up and fly right or shipping him out earlier for equal value – where have you been for the past four or five years? He’s made multiple requests to be traded, and no trade ever made sense due to the money he was owed and what teams would offer. Furthermore, Manny being Manny was almost always harmless – taking a bathroom break during a pitching change, calling someone on his cell from the green monster. The worst things he did – refusing to pinch hit, refusing to play when it was supposed to be a day off, not running out groundballs, being late in March -was relatively few and far between.

      But that changed when he started to rip the team and ownership. He went so far over the line, he obliterated it. No one on the team doubts that Manny would have shut it down had he not been traded.

      This is classic ‘addition by subtraction’. No more questions about Manny. No more B.S. Just go play the game, and since they brought in someone who brings other things to the table (defense, some running ability, not to mention a lot of respect for the game and how it should be played) I think we did OK with Bay.

    8. July 31st, 2008 | 11:14 pm

      Well, you’ve certainly convinced all of us. They’re sure to win it all without him!!!

      :-P

    9. antone
      August 1st, 2008 | 12:29 am

      Funny that Bay actually has far more errors over the past two seasons than Manny but yet Bay is supposedly bringing defense to the Red Sox. Bay has 14 errors in the last 3 seasons and Manny has 5.

      Bay probably has more range but does range matter that much in left field at Fenway?

      Not to mention Bay has to deal with all the crazy bounces off the wall which Manny was actually pretty good at fielding.

      You still don’t see the point that maybe Manny feels like he can go over the line because nobody ever made him pay for it before. It doesn’t make it right but we are talking about Manny here, so who knows what goes through his mind half of the time. I still think the Red Sox have completely mishandled Manny since they got him.

      You are delusional if you think Manny would tank the season when he is playing for a contract next season. That would seriously hurt his value because teams would worry about him doing the same thing for them. Manny has a week or two stretch every season in the second half where he throws a hissy fit and everyone asks if he’s tanking on purpose. This is nothing new but the Red Sox played hard ball with him this time because they know they weren’t picking up his $20 million option.

      We still don’t know what the Red Sox said to Manny, they might have disrespected him as much as he disrespected them. Manny is probably pissed they are calling him out now for his antics because they never did anything before and they are doing it now so he probably thinks its an excuse so they wont have to pay him.

    10. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      August 1st, 2008 | 7:33 am

      Pete,
      I didn’t say they’d win it all! But other things have to go right or improve.

      Antone, while its possible they said “something” to Manny to piss him off, the only reason they had was when he shoved the 60 year old guy to the floor, and that was a full month ago. Manny was cool after that, at least until the break when he mouthed off about John Henry, which Henry “took personal offense” to.

      I figured that if anything, Boras could convince Manny that now he has to play for his contract but its obvious that the front office simply did not believe that he could be convinced not to tank.

      Finally, as to defense (and I don’t have the advanced metrics in front of me) but doesn’t better range result in more attempts and therefore more chances for error? I’d really like to know more details about his errors. Plus, 81 games at Fenway also means 81 games away from Fenway, where Manny’s lack of range hurt. Players come to Boston and learn the wall and play it effectively. Bay is a good enough outfielder that it shouldn’t take him long to attain proficiency in playing the Wall.

    11. JJay
      August 1st, 2008 | 7:53 am

      Just give it up. This Red Sox fan is just like Gammons. No matter what happens or how stupid a move the Sox make they’re going to twist it around to make it look like the Red Sox just got a whole hell of a lot better and that the Yankees suck. That’s their MO and that’s just how it goes.

    12. Raf
      August 1st, 2008 | 7:59 am

      That’s their MO and that’s just how it goes.
      ——-
      Gotta give him some credit, at least he’s come prepared to argue his case.

    13. antone
      August 1st, 2008 | 8:31 am

      I really don’t think more range means more chances for errors in the outfield because there could be a ball that Bay can get to but Manny doesn’t get to it so it goes by him but he still has to field it cleanly when he picks it up without bobbling it or throwing it away.

      Bay’s errors could be throwing errors, not sure how we would know that though. Most times in the outfield the error is on a ground ball or a throw…not too often do players drop fly balls.

      Plus I would argue that Manny’s range numbers might be less because he plays in Fenway where it is smaller than most left fields out there…I’m thinking that has to be part of the reason his range is less and also that he probably almost always defers to the CF when the ball is hit in the gap.

      Manny makes some crazy plays in the outfield from time to time, like the one in Anaheim, but other than that I really don’t think he’s that bad out there.

    14. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      August 1st, 2008 | 2:25 pm

      Just to make it clear how everyone was fed up with Manny, and that there wasn’t much choice in the matter for Theo:

      (From Sean McAdam):
      “General manager Theo Epstein was working with a mandate from within his own clubhouse. After his team’s dispiriting loss to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim on Wednesday night, Epstein met with a handful of Red Sox veterans, all of whom delivered the same message: Manny had to go.

      If his antics weren’t directly responsible for the team’s slide — the Sox have lost five of six on the current homestand, their worst stretch of play at Fenway all season — they were certainly serving as a distraction.

      Worse, the players feared that if Ramirez remained with the Sox for the rest of the season, he couldn’t be counted upon in the middle of a pennant race. In their minds, there were no guarantees that Ramirez wouldn’t engage in further petulant displays that could sidetrack the team’s playoff push.

      In the past, teammates had advised against just such a deal, reminding management that, whatever his faults, Ramirez’s skills as a run producer were too valuable.

      But in the last week or so, Ramirez lost the clubhouse and the equation was turned on its head: No matter how good he was as a hitter, it wasn’t enough to outweigh the negatives.

      Teammates were tired of answering questions about him, tired of rationalizing his selfish behavior, and frankly, tired of him.

      Armed with that knowledge, Epstein set out to make a trade — any trade.”

      http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/sp_bb_red_sox_trade01_08-01-08_O7B2I4V_v19.40422d2.html

      All things considered, I think they did pretty well to land Bay.

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