Heyman: Yanks To Offer Cashman Extension
Via Jon Heyman -
Never mind the Yankees’ current standing in third place, or their recent struggles. Both Steinbrenner brothers are now said by people familiar with their thinking to be on board with Brian Cashman as their general manager, for now and long into the future. Even if the Yankees fail to play into October for the first full season since 1993, club insiders say the Steinbrenners plan to offer Cashman a contract extension after this season.
Cashman didn’t want to discuss his own situation when reached by phone Tuesday night. But he should have plenty of clues to know he’s wanted back, according to other club officials.
Quieter Steinbrenner brother Hal, who appears to be growing into a real force behind the scenes, is said to have remained a consistent supporter of Cashman’s.
Cashman, who declined to discuss a possible extension when Yankees ownership approached him about one last winter, still doesn’t want to talk about it. “My situation is the last thing that should be in anyone’s thoughts,” Cashman said by phone. “We have about 45 games left, and we’re trying to figure out what the hell’s wrong and how to get it right.”
But Cashman pointed out that he shouldn’t have the luxury of negotiating a new contract before it is up if longtime stars like Mariano Rivera and Posada and even iconic manager Joe Torre didn’t have offers to be extended until after the final season in their original contracts.
“It wouldn’t be appropriate to have dialogue now. We didn’t do it for any of them. I should be no different,” said Cashman, whose contract expires Oct. 31. “We’ve got a very short time to figure this out. I’m not thinking about anything until November 1.”
It’s clear what consumes Cashman now. When it is suggested that no one could have foreseen all the injuries and no victories from touted rookie pitchers Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy, Cashman said, “That has nothing to do with it. It’s our … offense. We can’t hit with runners in scoring position.”
But make no mistake, Cashman isn’t looking elsewhere for blame. “I’m responsible,” he said. “My hands are full.” The Steinbrenners, though, aren’t blaming him.
Great. Cashman’s 21st century Yankees will live on…
…the Yankees will look continue to look marvelous in terms of their win totals and revenue…but play like chumps, instead of champs, when it counts.
Man, are you Debbie Downer these days or what?
Cashman isn’t the best GM in the game, but he’s certainly not the worst. He shown he can make minor moves when needed and he can learn from his mistakes. Going forward he’s plotted the best possible course for the Yankees – depth youth and sign stars once they become free agents. That’s a recipe for long-term success. And most importantly, he has the owners fully on board. That may sadden folks who wanted Santana (Steve!), but the same strategy there is the one that netted Vazquez, Weaver, Brown and Unit. Meanwhile, the Mets show how it could get worse with the same payroll and a GM a little bit less able.
The only difference between the Yanks and Sox the last few years is Schilling and Papi. The Yanks could have had Schilling but Vazquez looked like a far better bet going forward. And no one knew what Papi would end up doing. The only difference this year is injuries – the Yanks had them in droves and the Sox didn’t. I used to hate Cashman, but the more I look at 2004-07 the more I see the influence of Torre (aging bench and bullpen – and how do you not bunt on Schilling?). This year was a clear step in the right direction for the future of the organization.
~~Cashman isn’t the best GM in the game, but he’s certainly not the worst. ~~
Agreed. 10000000%
But, shouldn’t the Yankees, with all their resources, have the best G.M. in the game – or someone darn close to it?
and the Sox didn’t
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missing papi for like the whole year doesnt count
But, shouldn’t the Yankees, with all their resources, have the best G.M. in the game – or someone darn close to it?
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By this logic, the Yankees, with all their resources, should have the best players in the game, or darn close to it… They don’t, they haven’t, and they probably never will.
Anyway, we’ve been down this road before. Who’s the best GM, and what criteria do we use to determine this?
Regular season record? Post season record? Players developed?
Cashman has had the reins since Feb 1998. So, we need to find a GM who has 3 World Series wins (98, 99, 00), 2 pennants (01, 03), 4 division titles (02, 04, 05, 06), and a wild card (07). And has assembled a team that had the best record in the AL 6 times since he became GM.
“But, shouldn’t the Yankees, with all their resources, have the best G.M. in the game – or someone darn close to it?”
And who is that? Given the 30 teams, I put Cashman in the top ten. So maybe nine other guys that *could* be better.
Fact is, we have absolutely no idea how a Beane or Schuerholz would do with the constant microscope and huge payroll.
And otherwise, it’s not clear who’s a surefire upgrade. Some of the younger studs might work – Byrnes or Friedman – but it’s the same problem. I am absolutely convinced (see SS, Manny, and their bullpen) though that Epstein isn’t better – just a tad luckier these last few years. Cashman isn’t the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but he’s better than average and works his ass off.
Besides, we know what we’ve got in Cashman. A change could just as easily end up worse.
The only difference between the Yanks and Sox the last few years is Schilling and Papi.
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Eh? I think there’s more to it than that. Both teams have made moves that didn’t work, both teams have made moves that have.
missing papi for like the whole year doesnt count.
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To piggyback on this point, the 2008 Yankees are like the 2006 Red Sox in terms of mounting injuries.
As for comparisons, I think you either have to rate someone a very good (top 10) GM if:
a) they regularly outperform their payroll; or
b) they regularly make the playoffs
Given one of those two conditions, that’s a very short list. And some guys with names (Shapiro, Williams, Dombrowski, Minaya) don’t rank above Cashman.
I think there are three realistic choices if they wanted an upgrade: Beane, Schuerholz, and Terry Ryan. The last two might do it as a last chance to win again. Beane could maybe be enticed with more money (but would the Steinbrothers really give him the control he wants?). Otherwise, you’re rolling the dice with a younger guy (Rays, Marlins, D’backs) or with a guy like Oppenheimer.
Seems like that leaves Cashman. He won’t make a huge difference, but his net influence is positive, especially because the Brothers listen to him. I’m cool with that.
“Eh? I think there’s more to it than that. Both teams have made moves that didn’t work, both teams have made moves that have.”
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But those two were huge net positives – by luck. Compare the similar Yankee moves – Vazquez to Unit and Giambi – on paper the better moves, but net negatives. Otherwise, the difference between the teams is very small.
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“To piggyback on this point, the 2008 Yankees are like the 2006 Red Sox in terms of mounting injuries.”
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Sorry, but the Yanks seem worse off. The pitching injuries are the same. But those Sox didn’t lose bats like Jorge or Matsui or A-Rod until after the season was already lost (Manny). All of their big bats gave them 500-600 ABs.
For the record, I don’t care whether Cashman stays or goes, just give me a good reason for a change.
I felt the same with letting Torre go after last season; give me a good reason for the change.
Girardi was supposed to be the master tactician, the overprepared genius. To date, I haven’t seen it.
Sorry, but the Yanks seem worse off.
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Regardless of degrees, the point was that the teams suffered numerous injuries that negatively impacted their seasons.
Girardi was supposed to be the master tactician, the overprepared genius. To date, I haven’t seen it.
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Agree 100%. Making a managerial change wasn’t necessarily the wrong move and I endorsed Girardi but there’s no doubt that he’s no better (or worse) than Torre. For all the things that Torre didn’t do well, Girardi’s got some flaws in his game too. Bottom line, there’s no such thing as a perfect manager. They’re all creatures of habit made to look great in wins and made to look horrible in losses. Nature of the beast.
“but there’s no doubt that he’s no better (or worse) than Torre.”
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I call BS. Torre would have been pushing behind the scenes for more guys like Ponson and he wouldn’t have developed any of the young bullpen arms. You know, cause he was with the team for 12 years and developed exactly one bullpen arm (who also happens to be the greatest of all time).
Otherwise, I see nothing Girardi’s done that Torre would have done better, except maybe hitting A-Rod 8th. Seriously, Torre would have done what exactly? Played Ensberg more? Or Sexson?
Girardi can’t be blamed for the injuries. The only thing I lay at his feet is Meacham.
One more thought on Torre: just as he did the last two years, he would have certainly had Giambi DH most of the time. That would have meant a lot more Ensberg and Duncan to start the season – you know like Cairo, Mancaveitch, Phillips, Phelps, and Duncan in 2007. Between 200 and 2007, Torre had Cairo start *22* games at 1B. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result. Thank God he’s gone.
Torre would have been pushing behind the scenes for more guys like Ponson and he wouldn’t have developed any of the young bullpen arms.
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Don’t think Torre called for Ponson this year… As for young arms, Torre went through a bunch of them last year, and always had guys that were already there, such as the aforementioned Rivera, Mendoza, Boehringer, among others.
Of course there’s the fact that some of those young guys were nothing to write home about; Sean Henn, TJ Beam, Mike Buddie, among others.
**Otherwise, I see nothing Girardi’s done that Torre would have done better**
Exactly, which is my point. Meet the new boss, same as the old. If anything, THIS would’ve been the year to fire Torre, especially if the Yanks miss the playoffs.
Really, Torre didn’t take the decent arms he had and absolutely destroy their careers?
The point is: Torre would not have been on-board with Hughes and IPK. He would have wanted veteran arms to start the year (see Colon, Bartolo). He would not have been on-board with moving Joba. And he wouldn’t have used Edwar, Veras, and Robertson in high leverage situations. That also leaves aside Giambi, as mentioned.
How do we know all of this? Because he didn’t do any of those things in his 12 years with the club!
Girardi is significantly better – now and for the future (and I wanted Mattingly). It’s not his fault the pitchers got hurt and the hitters have hit. The only thing that maybe could have helped, on the basepaths and with Cano, was keeping Bowa around.
The difference in bullpen management says everything about the difference between the two. Girardi made it work. Torre never did. Heck, Girardi even got something out of Farnsworth and that enabled turning him into Pudge. Torre simply developed “rules” for Farns’ use and then never deviated from them.
I’d take 2008 Girardi over 2007 Torre every day and twice for doubleheaders. Let Torre put a guy with a .324 OBP at leadoff in LA.
Really, Torre didn’t take the decent arms he had and absolutely destroy their careers?
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Name these pitchers; this is an oft-cited canard, as was the claim that Girardi wasn’t any better.
Everyone thought it was cute that there were the “Joba Rules” last year, because Torre “master shredder of young arms.” Whelp, Chamberlain, Hughes, & Kennedy have all been injured this year…
Edwar & Veras were your 6th and 7th inning guys. Farnsworth was your 8th inning guy. Under Torre AND Girardi. Check their leverage usage under both managers.
You think Torre is the only manager to want veteran arms to start the year? Pettitte, Mussina, Hawkins? All veterans.
You want proof that they’re the same? Both refuse to pitch Chris Britton
Torre simply developed “rules” for Farns’ use and then never deviated from them.
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At Farns’ request, mind you. Farnsworth was the one who said he couldn’t work consecutive days, not Torre.
Farnsworth was so effective as a setup man last year, that they called up Chamberlain. What does that tell you?
Of course I say this with the caveat that this year, the pitching isn’t the problem. It’s the offense.
Karsay?
Proctor?
Sturtze?
Gordon?
The difference is: With Torre, Hawkins would have been pitching the 7th and 8th innings….in June.
Britton is an organizational blind spot.
Edwar:
2007 – 55 ERA+
2008 – 112 ERA+
Veras:
2006 – 110 ERA+
2007 – 77 ERA+
2008 – 151 ERA+
Farnsworth:
2006: 104 ERA+
2007: 93 ERA+
2008: 115 ERA+
Torre is the devil that haunts relievers in their sleep.
Vizcaino is hurt this year too – after 75 IP last year.
Seriously, look at the difference in bullpens (> 40 IP):
2007:
Rivera
Vizcaino
Bruney
Farnsworth
Myers
Proctor
Villone
2008:
Rivera
Farnsworth
Edwar
Veras
Hawkins
Ohlendorf
Girardi also knows how to distribute the load. Torre had three guys at 60 innings and above (and Proctor would have been 4th – traded at 54 IP). Girardi will end up with one (Mariano). And with more need for a pen this year.
Karsay? – Check his injury history. Injured as a Jay, A, and Indian.
Proctor? – Check his workload; 69 innings in 04, 87 in 05, 102 in 06.
Sturtze? – Never was all that great to begin with, check his stats
Gordon? – Used to be a starter, can handle a higher workload; 74 in 03, 89 in 04, 80 in 05
As for Vizcaino, he topped 70+ innings 3 times before he came to NY (81, 72, 70)
Veras (elbow) and Farnsworth (back) were injured in 2007.
Cashman’s time is done here. There is a need for a fresh voice. Is that Gillick,Oppenheimer or whoever else is available? Maybe, because this Cashman / Torre regime has run its course. Let me see Cashman play around with 100 mill a year in Philly or Toronto and make it work there.
One more thing, people who believe that Torre wasn’t an arm wrecker should join the Bill James school of habitual contrarianism. The same people who claim that there are no clutch pitchers.
Sturtze and Proctor were victims of Torre’s love of certain pitcher’s arms. I can’t imagine what was racing through Proctor’s head when Torre was coming to LA…trade me to the Long Island Ducks, get me anywhere but here!
Torre had three guys at 60 innings and above (and Proctor would have been 4th – traded at 54 IP).
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So?
1996: 4 (Wetteland, Rivera, Nelson, Wickman)
1998: 2 (Rivera, Stanton)
1999: 4 (Rivera, Stanton, Grimsley, Mendoza)
2000: 4 (Rivera, Stanton, Grimsley, Nelson)
Check out other teams around the league. In 2007 (60+ innings);
LAA: 4*
OAK: 1
TEX: 3
SEA: 3
DET: 2
CHI: 1
CLE: 3*
MIN: 3
KCR: 3
BOS: 1*
TOR: 3
BAL: 2
TBD: 3
* = Made playoffs.
Sturtze and Proctor were victims of Torre’s love of certain pitcher’s arms.
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Check their usage patterns
Sturtze went from 195 innings in 2001 to
2002 – 224
2003 – 89
~~~With NYY~~~
2004 – 77
2005 – 78
2006 – 10 (injured)
Proctor’s innings was covered in a previous entry.
Don’t feel like counting Sturtze’s minor league innings, but I think I’ve done enough :p
My point is Torre’s use ruined those arms. You look at all those guys (Karsay, Proctor, Gordon, Sturtze, Vizcaino) and all got hurt with arm injuries while they were with the team or right after they left. It’s not that they couldn’t handle the load – they couldn’t handle his (ab)use.
Otherwise, I’m simply arguing the difference between 07 Torre and 08 Girardi. And that difference couldn’t be more clear than day and night. Bullpen (shown), roster (old vs. young), lineups (Giambi most obviously) – Girardi’s been a vast improvement.
Meanwhile, Torre is batting a guy with a .326 OBP in the leadoff spot. Thank God he’s gone.
Pat Gillick is no improvement on Cashman.
Frank, Gillick is no improvement over Cashman? Unh? Gillick built that 1992-93 Jays team. He also did a great job in Seattle as well. Philly finally got into the playoff mix under his aegis. BTW Gillick hasn’t had the obscene amounts of money to play around with either,ex. the Phils spend aroun 100 mill. Cashman inherited that Watson team and that is why he has his rings. Yes, he is a decent GM with a decent long term plan BUT he has 210 million dollars to play around with for the major league payroll, he drafts players by paying over slot( that’s a lot of money because the Yanks and the Red Sox are two of the two teams that can pay for bonus babies) so he has almost unlimited resources that no other GM can dream of touching….not even Boston’s GM. I’d love to see what Cashman could do in a market like Toronto or Philly where he couldn’t make trades like Marte and Nady at a moment’s notice because of the payroll constraints.
My point is Torre’s use ruined those arms. You look at all those guys (Karsay, Proctor, Gordon, Sturtze, Vizcaino) and all got hurt with arm injuries while they were with the team or right after they left.
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And my point is that he didn’t. Karsay & Gordon had major injuries before their Yankees career. Proctor, Sturtze & Viz usage patterns don’t fit the criteria for abuse.
***Otherwise, I’m simply arguing the difference between 07 Torre and 08 Girardi. And that difference couldn’t be more clear than day and night. ***
Exactly; 2007, Yanks made the playoffs, 2008 Yanks are more likely than not going home.
I am going to fall in behind Frank on this one. You don’t need to compare innings totals year to year or team to team to see the difference in bullpen usage. Anyone watch 100+ games a year could see that Torre tagged relievers by May and used his formula till it broke. I don’t believe that is a canard. Girardi has distributed the work more evenly, particularly the “highly leveraged” situations.
He may yet run out of options and the bullpen’s final 40 games make look more like the last 10 than the first 110. But he hasn’t settled on a Proctor, Karsay or Sturze at the exclusion of other this year.
I don’t miss Torre for a minute. My only regret is that we didn’t begin this slide in early July. We could have been sellers at the deadline and unloaded Giambi, Abreu and who knows who else. If we are going to miss the playoffs, I’d like to see Girardi grooming next years talent.
I am going to fall in behind Frank on this one. You don’t need to compare innings totals year to year or team to team to see the difference in bullpen usage. Anyone watch 100+ games a year could see that Torre tagged relievers by May and used his formula till it broke. I don’t believe that is a canard.
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The thing is, it’s wasn’t a problem, as I have shown. 3 of the 4 championship teams “had three guys at 60 innings and above.” Including the Yanks in 2007, 9 teams “had three guys at 60 innings and above,” 3 of which made the playoffs.
“The point is: Torre would not have been on-board with Hughes and IPK. He would have wanted veteran arms to start the year (see Colon, Bartolo). He would not have been on-board with moving Joba.”
I don’t know why people say that. Who were the good young starters he refused to use? Ummm…none, because there weren’t any. The system produced Pettitte and Wang – neither of whom he hesitated to use – and in between, nothing.
“Between 200 and 2007, Torre had Cairo start *22* games at 1B. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result.”
Another canard: that Torre played Cairo at first because he loved Miggy so much.
Last year, Cairo’s starts at 1b came when both Giambi and Mientkiewicz were injured. His only alternative was Josh Phelps, and I can’t kill him for thinking Josh Phelps sucked, because he did.
When the Yankees brought Andy Phillips up, Cairo went back to being a utility player. When they got Betemit, Cairo lost that job as well.
The thing is, it’s wasn’t a problem, as I have shown. 3 of the 4 championship teams “had three guys at 60 innings and above.” Including the Yanks in 2007, 9 teams “had three guys at 60 innings and above,” 3 of which made the playoffs
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There is nothing fundamentally wrong with using 3 or more guys for 60 innings – if you have the guys. Mo has always been one. Stanton delivered for three of the champion teams. Torre got used to Rivera, Stanton and later Nelson. It worked, so it became his formula. Hard to argue with the results. But when he didn’t have a late 90′s vintage Stanton or Nelson to go to, he kept trying to find their successors. And after it didn’t work, he kept trying – without getting the results. He didn’t have the courage or vision to switch to a formula that might fit the talent he had. Picking two setup guys to rely on in tough situations early in the season may reduce your risk in May or June but it increases it for September and October. You don’t give the other guys chances to build confidence delivering in tough situations. And that hurts you later if one of your work horses gets hurt or burned out before season end.
As you point out, 3 teams made the playoffs using 3 guys 60+ innings. That also means 5 made it without doing that. The right strategy depends on your talent but spreading the work lowers your risk.
IMHO, Girardi has done a better job using the talent he has in bullpen. Unfortunately, the lowest run production from a Yankee team since 1992 will make it a moot point.