• WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 11/28/08

    Posted by on November 28th, 2008 · Comments (41)

    Feel free to use this post as a place for you to comment on anything Yankees-related (or within reach of tagging the bag of being Yankees-related on a decent slide) today. It could be a casual conversation offering, or, something you saw in the news, or something very detailed that you want to share that’s within the territory of Yankeeland.

    Or, comment on something that someone else has posted here in the comments…

    Have fun. Play nice. And, remember, keep it Yankees-focused.

    Comments on WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 11/28/08

    1. November 28th, 2008 | 6:21 am

      Is it just me or is it white knuckle time in the Yanks front office over CC’s future? As the clock ticks it’s becoming obvious how important he is and how dubious the rest of the free agent pitching list is.

    2. November 28th, 2008 | 9:08 am

      At this point, I would be more shocked if CC signed with the Yankees than I would be if he signed elsewhere.

      It’s clear that the Yankees are not first on his wish list – and that he would only come here if the dollars are off-the-charts.

      So, in the end, I suspect that he’ll sign with a west coast team. Therefore, if the Yankees have all their eggs in the CC basket, they’re being pretty stupid, IMHO.

    3. November 28th, 2008 | 9:13 am

      “It’s clear that the Yankees are not first on his wish list – and that he would only come here if the dollars are off-the-charts.”

      how is this clear? Sabathia and his agent have basically said about 3 words combind since the season ended. how does anyone know what is clear based on that?

      yeah, he hasnt taken the 6 years/$140 million offer… because he or his agent probably assume if he makes the Yankees wait an extra couple weeks or so, the team would sweeten the deal and he’ll squeeze out a couple extra dollars.

      that doesnt mean that he prefers pitching on the west coast or that he doesnt want to play in NY… that means that he wants to optimize his value in the open market.

    4. November 28th, 2008 | 9:21 am

      ~~how is this clear? ~~

      It’s simple. If it was your lifelong dream to play for the New York Yankees, or, even if it was just your current dream come true to play for the Yankees, and the Yankees offered you more money than any other pitcher is being paid (in the game), what’s to think about? You sign that deal the day after it’s offered.

      Because CC has not accepted the Yankees offer – the Johan-like package – and wants to hear from other teams, proves that the Yankees are not the top of his wish-list teams that he wants to play for…could it be any more clear?

    5. November 28th, 2008 | 9:42 am

      “If it was your lifelong dream to play for the New York Yankees, or, even if it was just your current dream come true to play for the Yankees, and the Yankees offered you more money than any other pitcher is being paid (in the game), what’s to think about? You sign that deal the day after it’s offered.”

      or, he knows that he’s evenutally going to sign and has all winter to do so, but if he waits:

      1) the yankees arent going to pull away their offer, and

      2) the yankees, if spooked by how long the process is taking, could offer more on top the already record breaking offer.

      Sabathia is just doing what he should to secure as much money in the open market as possible.

      people are just reading way too much into this.

      is there a possibility he doesnt sign? of course.

      but is it more likely that he does so than sign in NY? not a chance.

    6. YankCrank
      November 28th, 2008 | 10:07 am

      Why is everybody freaking out about CC not signing? TurnTwo is absolutely right…his patience on the market is not because he prefers a West Coast team over the Yankees. He is waiting to maximize his earning potential and that’s ok. If I was the top pitcher on the market, was hitting free agency for the first time and was just traded midseason i’d want to take my time and earn as much money and security in a contract that I could get. CC is doing just that and he should be doing it. Also, Lombardi, it’s never clear and genuine if people are lifelong Yankee fans and want to be a Yankee, we just learned that with Gerrit Cole who supposedly grew up a Yankee fan and reportedly wanted to be a Yankee badly. Don’t assume CC is signing with a West Coast team until he actually does.

    7. November 28th, 2008 | 10:25 am

      ~~Don’t assume CC is signing with a West Coast team until he actually does.~~

      Sure. But, don’t assume CC is signing with the Yankees until he actually does as well.

    8. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      November 28th, 2008 | 10:30 am

      Everyone is forgetting that Sabathia also said he didn’t want this to take very long. So if he doesn’t want it to take very long, wants to make the most amount of money possible, why wouldn’t the agents spread the word:

      Match or beat the Yankees, or forget it.

      They haven’t done that and its because Steve is right: C.C. doesn’t especially want to come to NY, he’d like to get a big dollar deal, preferably more than Santana, from a West Coast team.

      Don’t worry, you’ll console yourself with Teixeira, and no one will miss Abreu. But it will be interesting to see how high the Yanks and Sox go when Boras has his dream teams competing for him.

    9. November 28th, 2008 | 10:36 am

      “Everyone is forgetting that Sabathia also said he didn’t want this to take very long.”

      we just got to Thanksgiving. how can this be considered “long”?

      we’re not even like two weeks or thereabouts into the true FA period, right?

      relax.

    10. thenewguy
      November 28th, 2008 | 10:37 am

      Sure. But, don’t assume CC is signing with the Yankees until he actually does as well.
      ————————————–

      That’s fine, Steve. The only difference between assuming CC signs with the Yanks and assuming he signs with “anonymous West Coast Team” is that the Yankees have actually offered him the biggest pitching contract ever. No team on the WC has done that. So, until he hears something bigger, I think we can assume he will sign with the Yanks, at least more so than with a team that hasn’t even offered him a contract.

    11. YankCrank
      November 28th, 2008 | 10:45 am

      “They haven’t done that and its because Steve is right: C.C. doesn’t especially want to come to NY.”

      NOBODY KNOWS THIS. How many times can it be said? We’re only two weeks into free agency, the season doesn’t start until April, and because CC didn’t sign right away he wants nothing to do with the Yankees? He’s a free agent and taking his time helps increase his earning power. He has never come out and said he wants to go to a West Coast team, nor did he say he doesn’t want to play in New York. Can he wind up going to the Angels, Dodgers or Giants? Sure, why not? But with the Yankees having the only offer on the table and CC waiting for more suitors to arise to help increase his annual salary, you can not just assume he wants nothing to do with the Yankees. There’s no substantial proof behind that reasoning.

    12. November 28th, 2008 | 11:16 am

      YankCrank: Do a google.com search of “Sabathia is said to prefer the West Coast” and just see all the stuff that you’ll come up with…FYI.

    13. November 28th, 2008 | 11:40 am

      “Do a google.com search of “Sabathia is said to prefer the West Coast” and just see all the stuff that you’ll come up with…FYI.”

      thats fine, i’ll play.

      first article that pops up:

      “Some believe Sabathia would prefer to play on the West Coast – he’s from the Bay Area”

      second:

      “Nearly everyone who knows Sabathia thinks he’d prefer the West Coast,”

      and third:

      “Sabathia, however, is believed to prefer both the West Coast and the NL”

      not a single, direct quote from Sabathia or his agent that says CC prefers to be on a West Coast team.

      its all “those who know him” or “sources say” or “it is believed”…

      basically “these newspaper writers need to meet deadlines with articles that draw attention.”

    14. thenewguy
      November 28th, 2008 | 11:45 am

      YankCrank: Do a google.com search of “Sabathia is said to prefer the West Coast” and just see all the stuff that you’ll come up with…FYI.
      ————————

      I did, and here are the top results:

      1: Some believe Sabathia would prefer to play on the West Coast
      2.Nearly everyone who knows Sabathia thinks he’d prefer the West Coast
      3.But for Sabathia, who is well known to prefer both the West Coast and the National League
      4.Sabathia, however, is believed to prefer both the West Coast and the NL.
      5. Sabathia is said to prefer the West Coast
      6. Still, Sabathia is from Vallejo, Calif., and some who know him say if all things were equal, he would prefer to play on the West Coast

      And, perhaps most importantly:
      7. While Sabathia hasn’t come out and said he wants to play anywhere specific, it is known that he’d prefer being on the west coast.

      Let’s just say that if this were a court of law, no one would be willing to submit that CC wants to play on the West Coast. This sounds to me like a HUGE snowballing effect based on what one friend, GM, or teammate said a while ago about CC’s preference. Everyone is ASSUMING he wants to play on the WC, and simply using everyone else’s opinion to back in up. The Daily News probably used the Post’s article as its source. No one knows.

      Can we assume that most baseball players have a region they would prefer to play in? Yes. Do I think most players want to play for their hometown (or near it)? Yes. Why does this make CC any different? What hockey player wants to go to Phoenix to play? What basketball player wants to go to Millwauke? Does a baseball player who grew up in Texas want to go play and live in Minnesota, where it is cold as hell?

      These people are PROFESSIONALS. They play where they are paid to play. Otherwise every athlete would play for their hometown team or where they like the weather best.

    15. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      November 28th, 2008 | 11:59 am

      Ever hear of the phrase “where there’s smoke, there’s fire?”

    16. November 28th, 2008 | 12:10 pm

      “Ever hear of the phrase “where there’s smoke, there’s fire?”

      how about ‘believe half of what you see, and none of what you hear?’

    17. YankCrank
      November 28th, 2008 | 12:15 pm

      Lombardi, I believe TurnTwo beat me to the punch and supplied enough evidence. Go back to what I said in the last sentence of my post…”There’s no substantial proof behind that reasoning.” Just because a friend said it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily true. We don’t know if he prefers the West Coast or not. Once again, everybody continues to jump on the “CC loves the West Coast, his reluctance to decide now means he won’t go to NY” when the rational, intelligent conclusion should be that he’s a free agent trying to maximize his earnings by being patient and either letting more teams get involved or make the Yankees sweat to include more money. It’s a business, and CC is doing what’s best for him.

    18. Corey
      November 28th, 2008 | 12:17 pm

      lol @ patronizing steve by saying “Lombardi”…seems like everyones in the holiday spirit already :)

    19. November 28th, 2008 | 12:18 pm

      Amen Corey.

    20. November 28th, 2008 | 12:22 pm

      Sorry all.

      The Yankees made a record-breaking six-year, $140 million offer to CC Sabathia. He has yet to accept it. And, it’s been a while.

      If he really thinks he’s going to get more than that, from someone, or the Yankees, in today’s economy..well..then, bless him.

      So, why not just accept the offer, right?

      Me? I think he’s praying that someone on the West Coast will offer him close to that…so that he gets his cake and eats it too.

      As such, it’s no lock that he’s coming to New York – because I suspect, from what I read, that the Angels will make a play at him.

      Again, just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

    21. thenewguy
      November 28th, 2008 | 12:33 pm

      He has yet to accept it. And, it’s been a while.
      ———————————

      I think that is the key. It really HASN’T been a while. If he were to sign now, in 5 years we would look back and say “Wow, the Yankees signed CC quickly.” Why shouldn’t he wait? What it CMW hurt his foot again by playing basketball? What if Becket accidently tore his rotator cuff during off-season training. Wouldn’t this drive his market up? What does CC have to gain by signing now vs. later? The comfort that he has a team going into the holidays? Only good things can happen if he waits; teams will get more desperate, injuries may happen, etc. If he signs now, he may miss an opportunity to make some more money later.

      It is still VERY early in the FA game, and I think a little patience is in order.

    22. November 28th, 2008 | 12:38 pm

      “As such, it’s no lock that he’s coming to New York – because I suspect, from what I read, that the Angels will make a play at him.

      Again, just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.”

      thats fine. i dont think anyone will disagree with the idea that there is a chance he may sign somewhere else.

      but your original point was:

      “At this point, I would be more shocked if CC signed with the Yankees than I would be if he signed elsewhere.”

      and what we (I) was trying to point out was that while your opinion may lend you to believe he’s not going to play in NY, there is no actual evidence to support the claim; its just your hunch.

      so actual odds would still favor the yankees, being the only team to offer an actual contract, and a record breaking contract, with the thought of more money being available.

    23. November 28th, 2008 | 12:41 pm

      “It is still VERY early in the FA game, and I think a little patience is in order.”

      agreed; patience is a virtue.

    24. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      November 28th, 2008 | 1:07 pm

      I find it truly remarkable that apparently no one questions the assumption/supposition that he wants to maximize his income to the greatest extent possible, but a lot of people don’t hesitate to reject the widely reported belief that all things considered, he’d like to play in CA, and maybe for an NL team. I mean, seriously. Is there a single source who says “C.C. wants to make the most amount of money possible”? And how many say that he would prefer the west coast/NL option?

      I have to say though that its impressive when so many Yankee fans have such faith that Steinbrenner money will always win the day. Kind of reminds me of another old saying: “When you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”

      “When you only have money, everyone looks like a money-grubbing free agent”?

    25. November 28th, 2008 | 1:11 pm

      “but a lot of people don’t hesitate to reject the widely reported belief that all things considered, he’d like to play in CA, and maybe for an NL team.”

      actually, i never said he wouldnt want to play on an NL team, or on the West Coast. Ive just maintained that the odds are still better than he plays in NY than those other two options.

      ““When you only have money, everyone looks like a money-grubbing free agent”?”

      unfortunately for your argument, you can prob count the number of players since the start of free agency who really took significantly less money to play for one team over another on one hand.

    26. November 28th, 2008 | 1:19 pm

      FWIW, even the $-hungry Carl Pavano took less money to play for a team close to his home when he passed on the Tigers for the Yankees. ;-)

    27. thenewguy
      November 28th, 2008 | 1:23 pm

      “When you only have money, everyone looks like a money-grubbing free agent”?
      ——————————

      Correct me if/where you think I am wrong:

      List of priorities for free agents:

      1. Money
      2. Years
      3. Money
      4. Money
      5. Money
      6. Chances of winning a championship
      7. Years
      8. Money
      9. Money
      10. Playing for their hometown
      11. The weather

      It has nothing to do with “Steinbrenner money.” It simply has to do with “money.” Whenever there is a so-called ‘Sweepstakes’ (be it for Tex, CC, Vlad, A-Rod, Soriano, etc.) it always refers to who has the most money to go get that player. Never do you hear (until this year, it seems) “well the Dodgers can offer him sunshine, the beach, and his family, so they have it locked up.” Instead, you hear “well, the Dodgers offered $120 Mil over 6 years, the Cubs only $95 Mil over 5, so he signed with the Dodgers.”

      I don’t see how you can think anything else OnceWas. Sure, occasionally players will take a few dollars less to play for the home team (generally only if they have already played for that team) or because they want to win a championship. However, FREE AGENTS SIGN CONTRACTS THAT GIVE THEM THE MOST MONEY. This is what they want, it’s what their agents want, it’s what the players association wants, and it is what is best for their future. Thinking anything else is extremely naive.

    28. thenewguy
      November 28th, 2008 | 1:24 pm

      FWIW, even the $-hungry Carl Pavano took less money to play for a team close to his home when he passed on the Tigers for the Yankees.
      —————————

      Presumably with the knowledge that the Yankees had recently won 4 WS, hadn’t missed the playoffs since ’93, and were in a good position to win a championship.

    29. YankCrank
      November 28th, 2008 | 1:28 pm

      “I mean, seriously. Is there a single source who says ‘C.C. wants to make the most amount of money possible’?”

      There doesn’t need to be a source for this. The fact that he thrived in Milwaukee, was universally known (through actual quotes, not through his friends)that he loved it there but still didn’t accept the Brewers lower offer of $100 million is enough to see he’d like to make a ton of money.

      Listen guys, nobody said here today that CC will be a Yankee. Turntwo and I never said that, and we never said you have assume he’ll be a Yankee. All we’re saying is there is no substantial proof, from CC or his agent, that he actually wants to go to a West Coast team. Is it possible? Yes, but no offer has been made and right now CC is sitting on a big offer from the Yanks, patiently, and waiting to see if something happens that will make his potential earnings increase. He may get impatient and make an offer back to the Yanks, the Angels can get impatient and offer him a ton of money, anything can happen…and that’s why he’s sitting on it (not a fat joke, i promise). So going back to the originally quote that sparked this, At this point, “I would be more shocked if CC signed with the Yankees than I would be if he signed elsewhere.” That is a personal opinion with no actual proof behind it. Opinions are ok, but in no way does CC taking longer than 2 weeks in November to make a decision make him any more likely to sign with the Angels than it does the Yankees.

      Also, i’ve never had a personal conversation with Steve Lombardi. I wasn’t trying to be a dick I just figured i’d call him Lombardi. No disrespect intended. If you’d prefer Steve i’ll call you Steve.

    30. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      November 28th, 2008 | 2:35 pm

      An alternative question:

      Team A, on the west coast, offers C.C. less than what the Yankees offered but enough to beat Santana’s deal with the Mets.

      Do you believe
      A. He will accept the offer regardless of what the Yankees do, and will remind the Union that he is still setting the bar for best pitcher’s contract in history.

      B. At C.C.’s request, the Yankees will dwarf the competing offer with an obscene (or nearly obscene) new one and C.C. will be in pinstripes.

      C. C.C. will accept the Yankees original offer because the west coast team did not exceed it.

      My money is on ‘A’ – if C.C. gets an offer from a west coast team that beats Santana’s deal, he will not hold out for the highest bid, he’ll take the money and the lifestyle he prefers.

      C. would mean that C.C. is motivated by money, but not by insisting on every last dollar bill. B. means that he is simply like “every other free agent” and wants to maximize his paycheck, period.

      Another way to look at it would be, do you believe that the Yankees must beat out an offer from the west coast by a substantial amount, or do they simply have to offer the most money, period?

    31. YankCrank
      November 28th, 2008 | 3:07 pm

      OnceIWasAYankeeFan: The fact that you even ask that question further proves my point. You’re simply concluding yourself, or asking us to conclude something that we simply don’t know. You’re acting on the assumptions of what sources not named C.C. Sabathia have said about his preferences. You’re free to believe anything you like but when you look at the sources who have persuaded your opinion, ask yourself if any of them are reputable. Just because Peter Gammons or one of C.C’s old friends say he likes the West Coast doesn’t prove he’ll go there for less money over the Yankees. Think what you like, but no actual proof backs it up.

    32. FourKings
      November 28th, 2008 | 4:14 pm

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Peter Gammons say that CC wouldn’t be signing with anyone until after Thanksgiving weekend; if not later? And please don’t say he’s a ‘source’ – its Peter Friggin Gammons. Furthermore, of COURSE Sabathia isn’t going to say he prefers to play on the West Coast to the media. Thats the last thing he’d want to say in public – as it potentially could cost him literally tens of millions of dollars. I don’t think the Yankees pay attention to these things when factoring in a contract deal that is unprecedented in its magnitude.

      I think for now the best thing to do is to sit tight and let things play out – and more importantly, don’t obsess over getting Sabathia – there are a few other big name pitchers and a certain first basemen and an outfielder who could benefit the Yankees immensely as well.

      One of my questions is, if the Yankees actually pull off the kind of revenue they are projected to make with both YES and New Yankee Stadium, do you think they might actually cross the threshold into spending too much? Having a 50% larger budget than any other team is one thing; having a budget twice as large in my opinion could be excessive. (aka as some have erroneously reported $290 million?)

    33. YankCrank
      November 28th, 2008 | 4:27 pm

      “And please don’t say he’s a ’source’ – its Peter Friggin Gammons.”

      Of course Peter Gammons is “a source.” Every writer who has assumed CC would prefer the West Coast is “a source.” My point is none of them are “the source” that would be able to prove if CC actually would prefer to play for the Dodgers/Angels/Giants. C.C. or his agent are the only ones who fit that title.

    34. FourKings
      November 28th, 2008 | 4:40 pm

      I think a ‘source’ is someone who is quoted as ‘a source’ within a news article. Not a Hall of Fame baseball journalist. But thats not my point. My point is Gammons said Sabathia didn’t want to sign until after Thanksgiving. If Gammons writes that, I’m going to hold it as true.

    35. Corey
      November 28th, 2008 | 5:00 pm

      I think this is the first time a yankee fan has stuck up for gammons ever…to counter-act that, he’s a red sox lovin hack

    36. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      November 28th, 2008 | 5:48 pm

      He’s a great writer who has cultivated sources for a long time, a worthy Hall of Famer and a “red sox lovin hack” who spent the late 90s hoovering Derek Jeter in print every friggin day.

      Some red sox lovin hack.

    37. thenewguy
      November 28th, 2008 | 8:42 pm

      …and a “red sox lovin hack” who spent the late 90s hoovering Derek Jeter in print every friggin day.
      —————————–

      Ah, so did you change teams when he stopped hoovering Jeter?

    38. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      November 28th, 2008 | 10:02 pm

      A, he never stopped hoovering Jeter and two, as I mentioned quite a while back, I changed teams in 1975.

    39. Janks-n-Jints
      November 29th, 2008 | 1:15 am

      A… and two…

      What the hell?

    40. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      November 29th, 2008 | 8:10 am

      I’m sure there are people here who understood the reference.

    41. Janks-n-Jints
      November 29th, 2008 | 8:06 pm

      No. No, there’s not.

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