WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 1/9/09
Posted by Steve L. on January 9th, 2009 · Comments (20)
Feel free to use this post as a place for you to comment on anything Yankees-related (or within reach of tagging the bag of being Yankees-related on a decent slide) today. It could be a casual conversation offering, or, something you saw in the news, or something very detailed that you want to share that’s within the territory of Yankeeland.
Or, comment on something that someone else has posted here in the comments…
Have fun. Play nice. And, remember, keep it Yankees-focused.
I’d like to bring back a point I brought up yesterday that I didn’t have time to comment on, and only Raf and butchie contributed to. It’s the point of the Yanks spending and Sox spending:
“Some people seem to forget the spending the Sox did after their 2006 failure to make the postseason. The Sox committed a hair under $300 million to JD Drew, David Ortiz, Josh Beckett, Julio Lugo, Dice-K (including posting fee), Wakefield and Okajima. Let me repeat that figure, $300 million. Do you think Red Sox fans crucified Epstein for spending over a quarter of a billion dollars on “filling holes” with money because he didn’t have the minor league talent instead? No, they didn’t, and they won a championship the next season.”
The Sox players I listed, whether they were on the Sox or not the year before, were all given big pay raises that 2006 offseason up to just under $300 million. That season, the Sox raised their payroll over $23 million and this year, after our Yankee spending, our payroll will be smaller (obviously these two payrolls are not near each other in figures but you can see my point). Why do we feel the need to act like Cashman is doing something wrong when Theo and the Sox clearly went by the same strategy that resulted in a championship?
Butchie keeps talking about how the Sox have a better minor league system and that’s ok, they are ranked 14th in 2009 as we’re 15th. They have developed more players recently that have helped their team win while some of ours had off years last year, but that’s not the point. The point is, why is it ok for Theo to spend and fans react positively to it when I see so many Yankee fans on this blog hate on Cashman for doing the same? I’m going to adopt Steve’s “wait and see” approach to see how these big signings turn out, and at the same time, be grateful that my favorite team likes to spend money and put the best team possible on the field every season.
don’t count wakefield, he has a recursive team option for $4 million
(and he didnt get a raise)
i’m simply counting the dollars the Sox spent to either get new players or bring existing players back in that one offseason. if you’d like to not recognize Wake as a part of that than i’m ok with it. however, i don’t think his $4 million changes my point.
The point is, why is it ok for Theo to spend and fans react positively to it when I see so many Yankee fans on this blog hate on Cashman for doing the same?
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Because the grass is always greener on the other side.
Anyway, haters will find a reason to hate, defenders will find a reason to defend.
The reality is that the Red Sox kids have impacted theat team in the last two years. Those kids contributed to the road to the 2007 World Championship and the road to the playoffs in 2008. Where is the Yankee equivalent of pedroia, Ellsbury etc so on? The ranking might be 14th versus 15th BUT the Red Sox have kids from their system that have had impact right now and contributed, let’s be honest. Like I said yesterday, the Red Sox spent 300 mill on resigning their own players AND spread that around how many players? The Yanks on the other hand, spent 425 mill on 3 players! One of which is a mega risk(Burnit).
Also, the Yanks have had time to develop players and Cash Man chose to go heavy on pitching. How has that worked out? Joba has been the only success story , so far. To be honest, Theo and Co have 2 world Series in the last 5 years and there is a reason for it. People can spin it all they want, but whatever the Red Sox front office are doing(drafting, signing free agents, and their relative cheapnesss to the Yankees) has worked, whereas the Yanks continue to spend oodles of money, dwarf every other payroll , and have no championships in the last eight years.
One last thing, Theo got heat after the 2006 season. Remember that the Blue Jays came in second that year and Boston didn’t make the playoffs. BUT here is the big but I want you to remember, BUT they won in 2004 (for the first time in 86 years). They reversed the curse and Theo was trying to keep them competitive to stay a championship caliber team. When was the last time , the Yankees won? 2000! Cash Man has been spending well in excess of every other team since then and the Red Sox have 2 championships in the new Century and the Yankees have none.
I ” hate” on Cash Man becasue he has had so many advatages in terms of drafting, free agent signings, and everything else yet the Yanks come in 3 games ahead of Toronto. Granted Toronto had the best pitching in the AL last year, but they had no Damons, Abreus, Jeters, or Arods on their team. Wells and Rios are currently not in the same category as those players. They spent half of what the Yankees did and look at the RESULTS! That is what I judge Cash Man on results and on that basis he has let the fans down the last few years. His misjudged in drafting mostly pitching, the major position player will be Austin Jackson. I mean are Gardner and Melky both good enough to be Yankee centerfielder this year based on offensive production.
Finally, my cynicism compounds itself because now Tampa will be good for the next couple of years. The Blue Jays were always 3rd place team so they weren’t the thorn in the side Tampa has become. Now the pressure on the Yankees is really coming from two teams not one. Last year was the culmination of Cash Man’s and the Yankee front office to have youth on the team or more precisely talented youth on their team. It was OK for the Yankees to sign veterans and the Yanks could make a trade and it would be OK because it would basically be between NY and Boston for the playoffs. That is where the Yanks’ bad habits caught up to them. Now that Tampa is in the mix, Cash Man and Co cannot just trot out the same formula. Will CC , Burnit and Teix be worth it? I like the TEIX signing quite a bit, and hopefully CC will be good for at least 3 years, but the other one? And now Cash Man wants to get rid of Nady? I think they still need all the offense they can get.
Cash Man has been spending well in excess of every other team since then and the Red Sox have 2 championships in the new Century and the Yankees have none.
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Ah, yes, the good ol arbitrary timeline.
So, if Theo is such a genius, why didn’t the Sox win in 2005, 2006 & 2008?
” hate” on Cash Man becasue he has had so many advatages in terms of drafting, free agent signings, and everything else yet the Yanks come in 3 games ahead of Toronto.
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Why did that happen? The Yanks got crappy production from 4 spots in the lineup, lost 3/5 of their starting rotation due to injury and ineffectivness, and STILL finished in 3rd place, winning 89 games. Good enough for 4th best record in the AL.
That is where the Yanks’ bad habits caught up to them.
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Bad habits? What bad habits?
The Yanks have consistently had one of the better run differentials. The Yanks have consistenly won 90+ games. The 2008 Yankees won more games than the World Champion 2000 Yankees.
“The Yanks on the other hand, spent 425 mill on 3 players! One of which is a mega risk(Burnit).”
I’m sorry, The Sox signing JD DREW was a humongous risk. His health is just as questionable, if not more than AJ Burnnett’s. Dice-K and Okajimia were risks, nobody has a clue how they’d transfer from Japanese ball to American ball and much more money was invested into those two than AJ Burnett. Wakefield is a risk in itself every year. And who cares if it was just 3 players? The Yankees can afford to invest heavily into 3 players, we should be happy about that and enjoy that risk where so few other teams can do the same.
Look butchie, there is no comeback to the argument “Theo has won 2 rings since 2001 and Cashman has none!” That’s true, so i’m very happy you can take that and use it as proof for your distaste for Cashman. With the way the organization ran our farm system into the ground, i’m pretty happy with what Cashman has been able to do since he took control in 2005. We’ve seen Cano, Wang, Joba, Hughes, IPK and assorted bullpen arms come up and enjoy some modest success. It hasn’t transfered into a World Championship yet, so here’s hoping it does soon.
However, Cashman’s spending is an advantage he has and he just took advantage of it. There’s risk in every signing, not just Burenett,so we’ll see how these last ones turn out.
Raf, i feel your pain. There is no common sense used in arguing with butchie. Unless we call Burnett “Burnit” or admit that the Yanks have been continuously run into the ground by Cashman, there will be no common ground.
Hey guys we can argue about roster construction and results all you want, but with yesterday and today’s reports, I don’t think there’s any doubt that the Sox have won the winter when it comes to …
bench construction.
Seriously though, Baldelli, Kotsay, Bard and (presumably) Lugo is a pretty deep bench.
And the more I hear about Smoltz’ rehab (throwing all five pitches now, fastball over 90), the more I think that he could be a big difference-maker this season.
I’d say Baldelli and Kotsay are very good parts of their bench. Bard doesn’t offer anything more than Molina does, and Lugo is so bad that Angel Berroa’s level of production isn’t that far behind. That’s one thing Theo has consistently done well, put a solid bench together.
The comparison to Molina is absurd. In 2006, Bard had an OPS+ of 145 in 100 games. In 2007 it was 107 in 118 games. 2008 was lost to injuries. If he’s healthy I don’t see why he shouldn’t approximate 2006-7, particularly playing at Fenway instead of Petco.
Molina on the other hand has a career OPS+ of 61, and only managed to OPS+ over 76 in short spurts of seasons (102 over 29 games for the Yanks,in 2007, 116 over 15 games for the Angels at the start of his career). Even if Bard regresses to his career OPS+ of 96, that’s a huge improvement over Molina.
Lugo I’d agree on, except that I think he’d produce more than Alex Cora, so he represents an upgrade.
That’s one thing Theo has consistently done well, put a solid bench together.
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Duquette did a pretty good job of it too.
Raf, i feel your pain.
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No pain felt
I’m just amused by the hoops people have to jump through to bash Cashman. Is he the greatest GM out there? Probably not. Is he the worst GM out there? Definitely not.
Not that I take arguments/discussions/opinions here seriously, but I can’t see how some of these points that are used against Cashman hold water. They don’t hold up to common sense, and they certainly don’t hold up to logic.
“I can’t see how some of these points that are used against Cashman hold water. They don’t hold up to common sense, and they certainly don’t hold up to logic.”
I wish I could stay as laid back as you. I definitely agree, but what’s amusing for you generally annoys the crap out of me.
As for the Bard/Molina comparison, yeah I was wrong. Good pickup on that one OnceIWAYF.
I wish I could stay as laid back as you. I definitely agree, but what’s amusing for you generally annoys the crap out of me.
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I’m sure butchie’s a good guy, we just don’t see eye to eye on certain things. It’s nothing personal
Off-topic. Has anyone seen Pavano’s posted today RE: the past four years.
“When you’re down, you expect your organization to pick you up, not kick you when you’re down,” Pavano said. “I’ve had to pick myself up quite a few times the last four years.”
It’s from here http://tinyurl.com/7np2bc.
Good Ole Carl. What a class act.
Now the Sox have added Takashi Saito, on a one year deal with an option? Another low-risk/high-reward Theo move that could help create a truly dominant bullpen – and I say dominant even if Joba ended up in the Yankee pen. You have to wonder if he can stay healthy since he had that oddball “injection” treatment instead of surgery on his elbow but damn – this guy was great with the Dodgers.
I’d still hate to see a trade of one of the young pitchers to get a catcher because there are too many medical questions about Theo’s signings. But what are the odds that all of them crap out? If just two of Penny/Smoltz/Saito return to their prior performance levels, the Sox pitching staff, already pretty good, gets a lot better.