My rant yesterday about Randy Johnson has brought cause for me to think deeper about my disdain for certain former Yankees pitchers – and for the man who brought them into the organization. Related, I’m going to vent some more, today, on this topic. On your mark, get set, go…
Javier Vazquez: He was 26-years old and coming off four solid seasons of pitching for the Montreal Expos. So, the Yankees traded for him. As “The Royal Order of the Cashman Kool-Aid Brigade” likes to say “It seemed like the right move at the time.” Me? I wanted to see this move pay-off for the Yankees like the deal that the Red Sox made at the end of 1997, when Boston (via trade) acquired (then) 25-year old Pedro Martinez who, like Vazquez, was coming off four solid seasons of pitching for the Montreal Expos. But, that didn’t happen. Pedro went on to star, and then some, for Boston for the next seven years. Vazquez only lasted one season in New York.
Randy Johnson: In January 2005, the Yankees traded for the “Big Unit” – then already a future-Hall-of-Famer-lock – coming off a super season, albeit as a 40-year old. The Yankees starting pitching in 2004 was terrible. And, Johnson was supposed to be a big part of the solution to that problem. Plus, he was going to be the “Games-One-Four-Seven Horse” for New York in the post-season. The kind of pitcher who could carry a team on his back in October. Here, to me, this acquistion for New York was supposed to, according to the Cashman plan, work out as well for the Yankees as the November 2003 trade by the Boston Red Sox where they picked up (then) 37-year old Curt Schilling. But, that didn’t happen. While Schilling was a hero in Boston for four seasons, Johnson was done in New York after two years – and the Big Unit did not help the Yankees at all in October.
Kei Igawa: In December 2006, Brian Cashman spent $46 million to pick-up Igawa from Japan. This was in response to the Boston Red Sox out-bidding the Yankees, and others, that same month for Japanese pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka. To date, Matsuzaka has made 61 starts for Boston whereas Igawa has made 13 for New York.
Jeff Weaver: In July of 2002, Brian Cashman swung a three-team in-season deal to pick up (then) 25-year old Weaver (from the Detroit Tigers). The Yankees logic at the time was that Weaver was a former hot prospect, who was still young, and someone who had gotten his feet wet at the big league level and was ready to go on a roll. I would imagine that the expectation here was that this trade would work out for the Yankees the way an in-season trade worked out for the Pittsburgh Pirates back in 1996 when they traded for (then) 23-year old Jason Schmidt from the Atlanta Braves. Schmidt pitched well for the Pirates – for about four and a half seasons – before they had to trade him because he was about to become a free agent. But, on the whole, Schmidt was a solid big league pitcher for 9 seasons following that 1996 trade. Weaver? He was out of New York by the end of 2003 and has spent the last 5 seasons bouncing around trying to be an effective pitcher (and failing, for the most part).
Carl Pavano: In December 2004, Brian Cashman spent $40 million to acquire the (then) 28-year old Pavano (as a free agent). And, well, we all know what the Yankees expectations were here…and how this deal worked out for New York, in the end.
Javier Vazquez, Randy Johnson, Kei Igawa, Jeff Weaver and Carl Pavano. All big plans by the Yankees G.M. Brian Cashman. And, all did not work out in New York as promised/expected. So, you have to excuse me, as a Yankees fan, if the mention of the names Vazquez, Johnson, Igawa, Weaver, Pavano and Cashman send me into a Niagara Falls routine…
12 Responses to “Slowly I Turned…”
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February 15th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Javier Vazquez: He was 26-years old and coming off four solid seasons of pitching for the Montreal Expos. So, the Yankees traded for him. As “The Royal Order of the Cashman Kool-Aid Brigade” likes to say “It seemed like the right move at the time.”
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http://www.waswatching.com/archives/2005/05/javy_vazquez_-.html
February 15th, 2009 at 11:48 am
There’s a pretty cool clip of Moe Howard doing the Niagara Falls bit.
February 15th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
I fail to see how it is a bad move by Cashman to get Vazquez. The fact that he didn’t turn out as expected wasn’t his fault. There was no reason to believe his best days were behind him.
You certainly can fault Cashman for trading him for a useless RJ though.
Same thing with Weaver. It was a good trade when it was made. Just because Weaver has the mentality of a four-year old doesn’t mean that when the trade was made it wasn’t a good one.
Again the problem was the poor trade they made to get rid of him.
It’s important to make bold moves like the Vazquez and Weaver deals. It’s also important not to make irrational moves for broken down pitchers.
February 15th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
I don’t like pitchers with losing records and I don’t care that they may have played for teams with losing records. The expression “finding a way to win”, doesn’t resonate in their game plan and I can’t explain why. There are exceptions, but to me the won loss record of the pitcher is the best indicator of what you will get over the long haul.
In the case of Weaver, I heard an interview with Gene Michael at the time of the trade and he gave a glowing report, so I blame Gene more than Cashman for overrating Weaver.
I can’t question either Pavano or Johnson, Pavano looked like a good sign, and Johnson was addition by subtraction (Vazquez). What I didn’t like about the Johnson deal was losing Navarro, I also didn’t know what to think about picking up a pitcher north of 40 and expecting him to be your ace.
Igawa made no sense whatsoever, the reports on him were not good. Igawa was projected at best to be an end of the rotation guy, to me he sounded like a type you could pick up off waivers. Why would you go out a pick up someone like that and pay 46 million.
February 15th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
~~There’s a pretty cool clip of Moe Howard doing the Niagara Falls bit.~~
The Moe clip was a tad annoying since it was on auto-play…so, I switched it. I like the Lou one better…I grew up on that one.
February 15th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
The expression “finding a way to win”, doesn’t resonate in their game plan and I can’t explain why.
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I can…
Because a pitcher doesn’t control things like defense, run support, and bullpen work. Wins don’t show how effective a pitcher was/is.
February 15th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
I fail to see how it is a bad move by Cashman to get Vazquez. The fact that he didn’t turn out as expected wasn’t his fault. There was no reason to believe his best days were behind him.
You certainly can fault Cashman for trading him for a useless RJ though.
Same thing with Weaver. It was a good trade when it was made. Just because Weaver has the mentality of a four-year old doesn’t mean that when the trade was made it wasn’t a good one.
Again the problem was the poor trade they made to get rid of him.
It’s important to make bold moves like the Vazquez and Weaver deals. It’s also important not to make irrational moves for broken down pitchers.
Quote from Rob
Rob, no offense but you are totally missing the point. Pavano was courted by a gazillion teams and how did that work out? It seemed like it was a good idea at that time is weak when the Red Pox have picked up and drafted pitchers that have lead them to World Series’ titles in two years. You can’t afford to have that” it seemed it was a good idea at the time” attitude when other teams PICK the right pitchers AND WIN!!! And actually it seemed like a stupid idea at the time to get rid of Lilly(who could actually pitch in NYC) for Weaver who never pitched a big game in his life.To add insult to injury, Weaver pitched in Comerica(which was the ultimate pitcher’s park at that time) and he pitched under absolutely no pressure on a terrible team. Then again it goes back to the so-called architect of the team, the Brainless one: Cash Man.
Cash Man has this penchant for signing bad pitching free agents. Burnit is the next iun line.There is a certain type of pitcher that can pitch in NY and Cash Man has picked a bunch that can’t! Yesterday I saw a line by a Toronto beat reporter and a Yankee reporter to each other. It was something to the effect of that is nasty and cold(personality wise). They are basically bringing back Brown and Pavano in one package. Can’t wait to see if he crumbles , what the aftermath will be? It will be very amusing and entertaining to say I told you so…….
February 15th, 2009 at 8:49 pm
And actually it seemed like a stupid idea at the time to get rid of Lilly(who could actually pitch in NYC) for Weaver who never pitched a big game in his life.To add insult to injury, Weaver pitched in Comerica(which was the ultimate pitcher’s park at that time) and he pitched under absolutely no pressure on a terrible team.
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I’d like you to run a search on articles from when the Weaver trade was made. There was hardly (if any) a bad word said about it.
February 15th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
Mate, that’s a great BUT you don’t trade someone who can play in the cooker pressure of Yankee Stadium for a kid that never pitched a big game and played on a terrible team. Common wisdom said that Johnson was a no brainer and look at what happened there. Vasquez looked like a better deal than the aging Schilling(both teams wanted Vasquez and the Red Sox got Schill).It’s nice that it looked good at the time…..then Boston reverses the Curse that year!No offense but whatever happened initially is wholy irrelevant in my opinion. A gazillion teams wanted Pavano(with the Red Sox offering him more than the Yanks BTW) but the Yanks got him. How did he do? He’s now part of the unholy trinity of Igawa,Weaver and Pavano! There are other people that belong in that mix,but those are Cash Man’s biggest flops.
February 15th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Pavano was a stupid signing, by any metric, that a gazillion teams wanted him, speaks to their inability to gauge talent. Igawa and Weaver were reasonable acquisitions.
And the pressure cooker argument is media driven bs.
February 16th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Raf, a couple of points;
Finding a way to win: you mentioned some the factors that go into the pitcher winning a game and of course your right; that’s the point, a quality pitcher can work through all that. Coming to the Yankees Vazquez was 64-68, his record five years later, 127-129.
Pavano was a poor signing in hindsight but go back and look at two things, the Yankees starting pitching going into the 2004 winter meetings,and Pavano’s record with Florida. The Yankees desperately needed a third starter and he was coming off a quality season and had pitched effectively in the 2003 post season.
Igawa was not a good signing. You mentioned in your discussion of Weaver newspaper stories at the time, well fine, look at the information that was available in the papers on Igawa, at best the prognosis was tepid. Michael Kay had a scout on who felt Igawa might not have enough talent to hold a major league roster position. On top of that he cost 46 million! So this is what we have, a pithcer who had never spent a day in American professional baseball, who had been in decline in Japan and costing 46 million. It’s a hard sell to call that a good signing.
February 16th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Igawa was signed to be a back of the rotation starter. He was never expected to be an ace or anything like the sort.
Run a search on the Igawa comments here. He was a perfectly reasonable signing at the time.
As for Pavano, his numbers pointed to his 2004 season being a fluke. His peripherals showed that his 2004 season was not sustainable.
I do realize that the Pavano and Wright signings were panic moves, but at the time, there little reason to expect that they’d be able to replicate their 2004 seasons. And they botched the Lieber contract.