Brattain: One Shouldn’t Assume Anything With Yanks Pitchers
Via John Brattain today -
Since Andy Pettitte was drafted, how many starting pitchers did the Yankees develop and retain that have tossed two seasons of 200 IP? How many have they drafted?
Almost 400.
Let’s face it–that is a staggering level of ineptitude…only Chien-Ming Wang (I’ll count 199.2 IP as good enough to qualify) since 1991.
This means that the organization has had to import their starting pitching–players developed by other clubs with differing philosophies; it worked when teams had trouble retaining their own talent but in Selig’s Brave New World fewer and fewer ace-quality pitchers hit the marketplace (or become available in trade) and have had to settle on guys that could perform in some environments but not necessarily in the Bronx.
The big change in the Yankees’ fortunes really came about between 2003-2004 when they lost Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte and David Wells (the latter two being southpaws–duh) and went to an all right handed rotation (a bad fit in Yankee Stadium) and nobody in 2004 tossed 200 innings while the departed trio had all topped that mark the previous year.
Again, the importance of the right parts as opposed to the shiniest ones was demonstrated.
The Yankees added two right handed pitchers for 2009 but how many of the candidates for the rotation are consistent 200 inning starters and can be reasonably counted on to assume that kind of workload?
Sabathia is a good candidate, Pettitte might have one more 200 inning season in him, Wang might–but that’s far from a sure thing, Burnett has never had back-to-back 200+ inning seasons and the organization will not try to get that many out of Joba Chamberlain, Ian Kennedy or Phil Hughes.
Will Sabathia and Burnett be Mike Mussina and Roger Clemens 2.0 or the second coming of Javier Vazquez and Carl Pavano? We won’t know and can’t assume the former (or the latter to be fair).
For those scoring at home, the Yankees drafted Andy Pettitte on June 4, 1990. Man, that’s a looong time ago…
The big change in the Yankees’ fortunes really came about between 2003-2004 when they lost Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte and David Wells (the latter two being southpaws–duh) and went to an all right handed rotation (a bad fit in Yankee Stadium) and nobody in 2004 tossed 200 innings while the departed trio had all topped that mark the previous year.
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And of that departed trio, only Roger Clemens threw 200 innings, and he was supposed to be retired
Since Andy Pettitte was drafted, how many starting pitchers did the Yankees develop and retain that have tossed two seasons of 200 IP? How many have they drafted?
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Who cares? They have the resources to acquire quality starting pitchers and don’t “need” to draft and develop their own. Pitching was indeed our strong point from 95-03 and a great deal of those arms were traded for, signed as free agents or imported.
I think we all understand why drafting and developing your own pitchers all the time can be good, there are many benefits to that. But as we’ve seen with four championships and 13 playoff berths in 14 years from 95-08, the Yankees can win and not develop their own 200 inning horses.
YankCrank: The point made in this article, and elsewhere, is that the Yankee’s formula of cherry picking other team’s top pitchers doesn’t work any more.
In part, this is due to revenue sharing so other teams have money to sign their own emerging FA’s. Also, many teams are now signing long term contracts to top players during pre-FA years.
And one other thing, in the post-PED world, older pitchers won’t hold up. I think that all teams are looking to expect more from younger players which means you develop your own.
Since Andy Pettitte was drafted, how many starting pitchers did the Yankees develop and retain that have tossed two seasons of 200 IP? How many have they drafted?
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I’m with Yank Crank on this one, who cares? This article doesn’t offer any comparison to other teams, so I can’t really be sure where the Yanks stand.
Also, why do we care if the Yankees sign pitchers who have “different philosophies?” That’s the most worthless thing I’ve ever heard.
He also says”fewer and fewer aces hit the market.” Isn’t CC probably one of the best pitchers over the last half decade? He was available via FA, Santana (the best pitcher) was also available (not by FA, though). I just don’t get the point of this article. Who cares where the players were developed? Do teams “philosophies” really differ so much, as the author seems to think, that a player from one team can’t pitch on another?
Guys, just look at the garbage pitching that the Yanks have acquired since 2003. Many of them were highly sought FA’s and the Yanks’ deepest pockets brought them here. How has that worked out? It’s a new era and the old formula doesn’t work. You just can’t buy starting pitching now.
Also, why do we care if the Yankees sign pitchers who have “different philosophies?” That’s the most worthless thing I’ve ever heard.
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Agree completely on this point. Josh Beckett’s “Marlins philosophy” (whatever the hell that even means) worked out just fine for Boston in 2007.
Guys, just look at the garbage pitching that the Yanks have acquired since 2003. Many of them were highly sought FA’s and the Yanks’ deepest pockets brought them here. How has that worked out?
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Looks like they’ve made the playoffs from 2004-2007. Best record in the league in 2004 & 2006. Won 89 games in 2008, lowest since 2000…
ken:
I agree with your assessment. It is much harder to get quality starting pitchers these days for all the reasons you listed and the point of my post wasn’t to abandon our system or anything along those lines.
The times have changed, recently, due to revenue sharing and teams locking up their arms and quality players through their arbitration years. However, this article is also a slam on what the Yanks have done since they developed Pettitte and with our years or championships and playoff berths, we haven’t exactly been struggling. With CC and AJ here it gives Kennedy, Hughes and the others more time to develop either into our arms or trade pieces for others.
Guys, just look at the garbage pitching that the Yanks have acquired since 2003. Many of them were highly sought FA’s and the Yanks’ deepest pockets brought them here. How has that worked out? It’s a new era and the old formula doesn’t work. You just can’t buy starting pitching now.
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Yes and no. While it’s certainly preferable to develop your own pitchers because of the efficiency/cost-effectiveness it provides, there’s absolutely no evidence to demonstrate that a team can only win a WS with homegrown pitching.
Since 2004, in the 22 WS games played, only 5 WS starting pitchers were drafted by the team they won with (Mark Buehrle, Anthony Reyes, Jon Lester, Cole Hamels, Brett Myers) and only 1 (Jon Garland) was traded to his team and spent time in the minor leagues with his WS-winning team.
2004: 0 of 4 starters homegrown
2005: 1 of 4 starters homegrown
2006: 1 of 4 starters homegrown
2007: 1 of 4 starters homegrown
2008: 2 of 4 starters homegrown
I would just like to point out that John Brattain is usually excellent. This just isn’t one of his better pieces.
As for this conversation here, I sort of agree with bits and pieces of what’s everyone is saying. The Yankees haven’t done a good job developing pitchers over the last couple of decades until very recently. This turned out okay for them, but it still probably would have been better if they had developed some pitchers.
Personally, I like their current approach, which seems to be something along the lines of “Sign all the best pitchers and develop good pitchers too.” Moderation in all things, I say.
Great research MJ.
“Also, why do we care if the Yankees sign pitchers who have “different philosophies?” That’s the most worthless thing I’ve ever heard.”
MJ:
It’s funny that you should say that because it was intended as a compliment. Maybe I should’ve used the word “mindset or makeup” rather than “philosophy.”
It takes a special breed of pitcher to handle and excel in the Bronx where expectations are high and the pressure is intense. Just look at how Randy Johnson and Kevin Brown handled it–both were thought to be tough customers but both couldn’t hack it in the fishbowl.
Let’s face it–I love the stats as much as the next guy but just putting up impressive numbers (traditional or sabermetric) is no guarantee of success in the Bronx.
As to the other points–I didn’t compare the Yankees with other teams because the Yankees have higher standards of success, more resources and greater willingness to use those resources…I didn’t think it unreasonable to point out that a team with such standards should have more expected of it.
Finally, the Yankees should care about developing their own pitching–between baseball’s growing revenues and revenue sharing, more and more teams are locking up the best pitching their organizations develop to long term deals long before free agency…this translates into fewer pitchers available for the Yankees to sign as free agents. Since these contracts other teams sign their pitchers to tend to be less onerous to the club, they’re less likely to deal them to the Yanks for salary relief.
Thanks for the link (and feedback). All the best in ’09.
Best Regards
John