Wild Thought: Best Yanks Rotation In Years?
Via Buster Olney’s 2001 Baseball Preview “Gripped by Success: Yanks’ Pitching Seems Unbeatable” which appeared in the New York Times on April 1, 2001:
There might be secret recipes in the fast-food and cola businesses, but not among pitchers. They will demonstrate their curveball and slider grips even to members of opposing teams, with the implicit understanding they are part of the same brotherhood, and the shared knowledge occasionally germinates.
Roger Clemens learned how to throw his forkball while signing autographs at a golf tournament. A coach in Cuba taught Orlando Hernandez how to throw a slider, and in time, Hernandez refined the pitch with his own instincts. Andy Pettitte struggled to control his sinker until an old sinkerball pitcher suggested an alteration. As a teenager, Mike Mussina tried emulating knuckleball pitchers and essentially invented a pitch that he still relies upon almost two decades later.
Clemens, Hernandez, Pettitte and Mussina are members of a Yankees starting rotation that could rank among the most accomplished in baseball history.
Prior to the 2001 season, I recall seeing a Spring Training photo of Clemens, Hernandez, Pettitte and Mussina, all lined up next to each other, shoulder-to-shoulder, with arms extended each holding a baseball. When I looked at the photo, back then, it excited me and led me to ponder the possibility of having four “horses” to lead the way for the Yankees (that season).
I don’t remember being that excited about the Yankees rotation before the 2002 or 2003 seasons – even though that 2003 unit was pretty strong, in the end. And, of course, since 2004, the Yankees starting rotation has had question-marks, at least to me, heading into each season.
And, while I realize that this year’s starting rotation, at this point in time, should be questioned, to an extent, I also find myself starting to get excited about this year’s group as well – somewhat like I was pumped prior to 2001.
Why is that? I’m not sure. Maybe it’s just blind hope? Or, maybe it’s catching on to a vibe coming out of the Yankees camp this Spring regarding their starters? In any event, today’s wild thought is this: Could the Yankees starting rotation this year be the best that we’ve see in Yankeeland over the last six to eight years?
What do you think – and why?
Why is that? I’m not sure. Maybe it’s just blind hope? Or, maybe it’s catching on to a vibe coming out of the Yankees camp this Spring regarding their starters? In any event, today’s wild thought is this: Could the Yankees starting rotation this year be the best that we’ve see in Yankeeland over the last six to eight years?
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This group may not be as established or as accomplished as that group from 2001 but I’m filled with the same kind of optimism. The Yanks have an in-his-prime ace (Sabathia), two solid, reliable contributors (Wang and Pettitte), and a guy with #1 potential if he can harness it the way he did last year (Burnett). Two righties, two lefties, three of the four with plus velocity and plus location. It’s definitely exciting.
barring any injuries i don’t see why it can’t be the best rotation i’ve ever seen the yankees field…honestly i realize i need to knock on some wood here but, i’m really diggin what i’ve seen from burnett, i think he may emerge as our best hurler by the end of the year
Yes. 3 righties, 2 lefties, 3 hard throwers, one junk ball thrower, and the meanest sinker in the land. we have 3 guys capable of winning 20 games, 4 if joba could throw 200 innings, and a guy who could win 15. If everyone stays healthy, we could dominate. I temper my expectations, but I am excited.
Steve…this may be your tamest wild thought yet, but I’d have to agree. As Spring Training progresses I’ve been finding myself more and more excited about our SPs too. 4/6 can’t get here soon enough!
handtius wrote:
I’d take Brandon Webb’s over C-M Wang’s. Fausto Carmona’s might be better too, although he’s not as good with the location of his pitches.
That all being said, I love Wang and it’s wonderful to see the Yanks fortify their rotation and give the poor kid some help. He’s been doing it alone since 2005, for the most part.
Why is that? I’m not sure. Maybe it’s just blind hope?
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I would say because this SHOULD be the best Yankees rotation in a long, long, long time. The only hope you have to have is that all of the pitchers stay healthy. If they all stay healthy, I think it is reasonable to expect that they perform similar to the way they have throughout their careers. If the pitchers stay relatively healthy and perform relatively consistent with their careers, along with the help of a solid bullpen, good offense, and spectacular closer, the pitching staff should be able to produce a lot of wins.
I don’t think it is outlandish to think that a rotation of CC, Wang, AJ, Pettitte, and Joba should be fantastic. It should be fantastic. It will be a disappointment if they aren’t great. Injuries, of course, can always change expectations…
I take wangs. it gets better every year and he keeps improving his secondary pitches. webb keeps getting worse.
And, of course, since 2004, the Yankees starting rotation has had question-marks, at least to me, heading into each season.
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Nah, I had them too.
04: Will Lieber be ok? Can Contreras handle a full season in the rotation? Will Duque’s shoulder be ok? I wasn’t concerned about Moose, Brown or Vazquez
05: Pavano & Wright? Are you f–king kidding me? This is the best you can do? Can Mussina bounce back? I wasn’t concerned about Johnson, or Brown
06: What are the odds that Small & Chacon can repeat? Will Moose be ok? Can Wang do it again? Why are Pavano & Wright still with the team? I wasn’t concerned about Johnson.
07: Who is this Igawa fella? Why is Pavano still here? Can Rasner last a full season? What’s the deal with Clemens? I wasn’t concerned with Moose, Pettitte or Wang
08: Can Moose bounce back? Can the kids hold up? Does Pavano have compromising pictures of Cashman and Torre with farm animals? Rasner ok? No worries about Wang & Pettitte…
last year in the beginning of the year wang had his slider and his sinker going, and to me, he looked unhittable, attacking hitters from all angles
Corey wrote:
Talk about rose colored glasses….. And Burnit? Ask any Jays fan how he looked to be the greatest pitcher in the world against the NYYs and Boston and was middling against everyone else. His injury history speaks for itself. With CC, did the record number of innings affect his arm this year? Can the Wanger stay healthy all this season? And Joba is on a pitch count,as well. Can Pettitte rebound back to his usual form. All these ifs and buts and the Rays and Red Sox are still pretty decent teams starting pitchingwise this year as well.
The best ,I’ve ever seen in Yankees pinstripes? What going back from my time:1973 onward? That remains to be seen, but I wonder how CC and AJ handle the lights of the big city…that will be key. They look great on paper but so have other team’s pitchers that have not won it all! On paper, the starting staff looks fantastic BUT the games aren’t played on paper. This pitching staff could either be awesome or middling,if two of these pitchers are out. I don’t think the Yanks will be terrible if let’s say 2 guys are knocked out, BUT they probably won’t be good enough to keep up with Tampa or It seems like they have some young guys that might be able to pick up the slack, but Kennedy and Hughes looked poised to do that too last year and we saw what happened with that………
my time would be the time in which i’ve been alive on this earth, i’m not sure when your time is
and let’s be fair, hughes and kennedy != aj and cc… i can’t really argue with your on the AJ matter because i’ve only seen him pitch twice in a yanks uniform and that’s during spring training, but just watching him throw…I feel like he’s throwing BETTER than when he was pitching against the yanks…
that’s why they play the games
I’m with butchie22. At this point in spring training everything generally looks great. The actual season will tell how good our pitching staff is.
BTW, note that in Burnett’s “breakthrough” year of 2008, Burnett had an ERA+ of 105 — barely above average. He did well to stay healthy and pitch all those innings, but he must have been somewhat lucky to win 64% of his decisions with such a mediocre ERA. By comparison, Mussina had a far superior 132 ERA+ last year.
so david, you saying that you’d take moose in 09 over burnett in 09 (if moose came back another year)
Of course, David, you could also bother to look at his statistics other than last year and see he is a career ERA+ 111. I don’t think anyone considered last year a “breakout” year for Burnett, as everyone has long known who he is and he already got himself one nice FA contract in Toronto. People were glad that he was able to pitch so many innings (220). His ERA+ two years ago was 119, would you take that? Or the 115 for the two years prior?
Yes, Corey, I sure would have preferred Moose ’09 over Burnett ’09, especially as Moose wouldn’t have burdened the team with the risk inherent in a 5-year contract.
David…. You would take Moose despite 3 of his last 5 seasons hehad and ERA + under 100?
Spring Training 1978: The Yankees pitching staff will consist of right handers Catfish Hunter, Andy Messersmith, and Ed Figueroa; left handers Don Gullett, Ron Guidry, and Ken Holtzman—with Goose Gossage and Sparky Lyle in the bullpen along with Dick Tidrow and Rawly Eastwick. It is arguably the deepest pitching staff ever assembled. Martin is even asked (repeatedly) if the Yankees have “too much pitching.”
Let’s not count our chickens before they are hatched.
David…. You would take Moose despite 3 of his last 5 seasons hehad and ERA + under 100?
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Personally, I would take Moose, too. Partially because of the contract. But mostly just because I love me some Moose.
That said, I’m happy to have Burnett. And, as I’ve been saying for a while now, the rotation is freaking good. Everybody is justified in their excitement.
Tresh Fan wrote:
The Yanks won the WS that year so I’m not sure I get your point about not counting chickens. If the pitching staff was highly-regarded AND the team ultimately was successful, what are we talking about here?
IIRC, a Boston collapse and an off-the-charts season by Gator had a big part in the Yankees making the WS that year, MJ – more so than it being the result of the Yankees having a deep and robust pitching staff.
Steve Lombardi wrote:
Fair enough, and I know about Boston Massacre v1.0. But the fact remains that the pitching couldn’t have been THAT bad if the Yanks went 42-17 (.712) to end the season. Boston’s collapse or not, the Yanks still had to win all those games and ended up with 100 wins in 163 games.
The point is that the “deepest pitching staff ever” never came to be. Holtzman proved to be totally ineffective, Messersmith missed almost the entire year, and Hunter and Gullett were sidelined for significant stretches. For much of the season the rotation featured Dick Tidrow(25 starts) and Jim Beattie(22) with Ken Clay making spot starts(6).