Here’s a fun nugget from the Defensive Scouting Report on Derek Jeter in The Fielding Bible — Volume II:
…Then there is the signature Jeter play, when he fields a backhander in the hole and makes his patented jump-throw. Jeter still excels at this play, but it disguises the fact that he does it because he lacks the arm strength to plant his feet and throw. His arm also causes him to play more shallow than other shortstops, cutting down on his range…
Funny. Many Yankees fans, and perhaps the announcers on YES as well, would probably suggest that the one thing Jeter has, in terms of a defensive skill, is his throwing arm. Go figure.
It’s an interesting theory – meaning the lack of a strong arm being one of the big drivers behind Derek’s defensive limitations. Me? I buy that part about him making the jump-pass from the hole because he can’t plant and throw. Yeah, I buy that one – 100%.
But, does Jeter’s arm cause him to play more shallow than other shortstops – thus cutting down on his range? I dunno…
David Eckstein played short without having the arm for the position – and I would bet that impacted his positioning and range. But, Ozzie Smith had a less than great arm as well – and the Wizard had more range than anyone…because of his overall quickness.
To me, that’s what it’s all about…with respect to Jeter’s lack of range. Great-fielding middle infielders have athletic ability and quickness. And, Derek does not have that “quickness” – that’s it. Well, maybe he had more of it back in the late 1990’s. But, that was a looong time ago, right?
28 Responses to “Why It’s Past-A-Divin’ Jeter?”
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March 20th, 2009 at 7:53 am
Yeah, I don’t know. It’s always seemed to me that Jeter has a strong arm. Does the book offer up any sort of evidence supporting that position? Have they compared video of where Jeter positions himself and how he throws to video of other shortstops?
I can’t remember how Jeter does by Dewan’s metrics, but I seem to recall that he does especially bad as compared to other systems. By most metrics, in most years, he’s in the bottom tier, but not egregiously awful. But I think Dewan ranked him as something like the worst shortstop in the league by a wide margin for the last decade or so. I might be thinking of something else, though.
March 20th, 2009 at 8:04 am
Woah…what happened to the blog layout?
I thought the reason why he did the jump-throw from the hole was because he could get the throw away quicker than if he stopped and had to plant his feet.
I’m sorry but there is NO way you can make a STRONGER throw from jumping instead of planting your feet first. Have you ever tried to throw a ball in mid-air? It’s definitely a lot harder to get something on it then with your feet planted. Plus he’s going away from first base, which means he would have even less on his throw.
If anything is true then maybe Jeter sucks at planting his feet and throwing from the hole. Meaning that he has a hard time collecting himself and making a good throw, while on the run in the hole and it’s easier for him to just do it all in one motion. I don’t think you can make that play without having a strong arm.
March 20th, 2009 at 8:36 am
Justin wrote:
I would bet that’s the case – the use of video, etc. Since that’s the backbone of the Fielding Bible stats, etc.
March 20th, 2009 at 8:45 am
antone wrote:
Agreed, throwing with all arm, and no legs, is harder on the arm. But, the jump-pass throw means a quicker release – which is needed because his throws don’t have the MPH behind it to support the time it takes to plant, set, and then throw. Make sense?
BTW, on the site re-design, where ya been the last week?
March 20th, 2009 at 11:00 am
No metric can explain St Derek. Truth be told even Bill James naysays him. That’s where scouting and watching the games count. Funny that you mentioned Eckstein, because he has two WS rings since 2002 and he is not the greatest shortstop BUT he squeezes out 125% from his small frame at bat and in the field. Likewise with Jeter…but Jeter had better skills than Eck. Yes ,Jeter is diminishing in range and the like, BUT I admire his effort no matter how middling it is. The conundrum that Yankees will find themselves in is similar to Posada’s. Do they disrepect one of the so-called Legacy Yankees to field a better team? Posada is still catching so he hasn’t taken one for the team, yet BUT will Jeter? It’s a point of pride for Jete to play SS, especially now that Nomar is a former shell of himself, Aroid plays third and Tejada is like a substance abuse guy as well. They were all supposed to be better than St Derek. I give Jete credit he’s still standing, though that convo on changing position will probably come after Matsui, Nady and especially Damon leave next year. As to why? Centerfield(and maybe other outfield positions) might not be a bad place for DJ to end up…….
March 20th, 2009 at 11:33 am
Posada is still catching so he hasn’t taken one for the team, yet BUT will Jeter?
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Butchie, the difference with Posada is that he is only head and shoulders above his peers when he plays Catcher. Relative to most of the league, he is an insanely good offensive catcher. Put Posada at DH, and he isn’t that impressive. Posada is particularly valuable BECAUSE he plays catcher, no matter how bad he is defensively.
With Jeter, however, there are plenty of good hitting and fielding shortstops. Unlike Posada, Jeter’s offense doesn’t make up for his defense at the position.
Also, since David Eckstein won 2 WS rings, that somehow makes him responsible for those? I mean, Luis Sojo had like 5 rings and I wouldn’t exactly call him a great player. Just because Eckstein won, that doesn’t mean he is an acceptable defensive or offensive player. Remember, correlation does not equal causation.
As for your claim that Eck and Jete squeeze out “125%”, that is just absurd. Maybe it looks like Eckstein is trying harder than everyone, but that’s only because his is so slow and his arm is so weak that he makes routine plays look stressful. Where other shortstops make a simple play, Jeter and Eck make a running and jumping throw because they simply can’t make a simple play. This, however, makes them worse at the position, not better. Even if it looks like they are giving “125%”.
March 20th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
David Eckstein sucks, plain and simple. Career OPS+ of 88 and career UZR/150 of -2.7. If you can’t hit for shit then you better be a good fielder.
What is the fascination with Eckstein? His two WS rings are incidental to his career and don’t tell us anything about his talent on the field.
March 20th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Jeter doesn’t lack a weak arm…he just has a poor release. It seems to take him a long time to wind up and sometimes his release is almost three-quarters.
Because he doesn’t have a quick release, he is probably better off with the jump throw.
March 20th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
With Jeter, however, there are plenty of good hitting and fielding shortstops. Unlike Posada, Jeter’s offense doesn’t make up for his defense at the position.
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Wait, what? Is this really what you meant to say? That his bad defense outweighs his good offense to form a below average player? Because, if so, I’m pretty sure you’re totally wrong.
David Eckstein sucks, plain and simple. Career OPS+ of 88 and career UZR/150 of -2.7.
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Yeah, but imagine what his numbers would be like if he DIDN’T give a 125%. And the fascination with him comes from the fact that he’s such a cute little guy playing in big man’s game.
March 20th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Tease: Thanks to the FBII, I’ll have a post up this weekend that shows why Jeter SHOULD win the Gold Glove. How’bout that?
March 20th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
BTW, on the site re-design, where ya been the last week?
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Filling out my NCAA Brackets
March 20th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Steve Lombardi wrote:
If so, further ammunition for the old saying “lies, damn lies and statistics.” Jeter’s a lousy fielder and it’s time everyone just accept it.
March 20th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Yeah, but imagine what his numbers would be like if he DIDN’T give a 125%.
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LOL! Yep, good thing he gives that extra 25% on top of his regular effort. If he could only find a way to give 150% then he might even work up to league average.
March 20th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Jeter’s a lousy fielder and it’s time everyone just accept it.
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I disagree with saying he’s a lousy “fielder”…it’s his range that is lousy..it’s not like he is a butcher with the glove…he just can’t get to the ball as good as other SS.
March 20th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
we all jeter is avg at ss defensively but who would u rather have there? when everything is combined. offense, leadership, clutch, etc.
whos a better ss? so hes not ozzie smith or adam everett but they arent him with the bat.
March 20th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Thanks to the FBII, I’ll have a post up this weekend that shows why Jeter SHOULD win the Gold Glove. How’bout that?
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So, satire then?
March 20th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
I disagree with saying he’s a lousy “fielder”…it’s his range that is lousy..it’s not like he is a butcher with the glove…he just can’t get to the ball as good as other SS.
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Range is part of being a fielder so having poor range is one part of being considered a poor fielder.
March 20th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
we all jeter is avg at ss defensively but who would u rather have there? when everything is combined. offense, leadership, clutch, etc.
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There are currently no in-house candidates to replace him so I don’t have any names I can give you that I’d rather have.
The offense is still OK, although it’s getting worse every year. The leadership/clutch stuff I consider fabrications and mythology and won’t discuss them in analyzing whether Jeter the player can still be an everyday shortstop.
Suffice it to say that my vote is a strong “no” for retaining him beyond his current contract. I am no fool and I know he’ll be kept because the Yanks have a gross fetish for keeping around old farts but, in an ideal world, they’d find someone that could play SS every day and get Jeter the hell out of there. His pitchers would appreciate it a lot.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
The offense is still OK, although it’s getting worse every year.
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Not really true. His offense was worse last year. Over the course of his career, though, it’s been pretty consistent. Career OPS+’s:
101, 103, 127, 153, 128, 123, 111, 125, 114, 125, 132, 121, 102
OPS+ doesn’t tell the whole story, obviously, but I’m not really seeing any steady decline there. It’s possible his down season last year represents a drop-off to his early seasons, but it’s just as likely that he just had a down year.
Further, there’s not really any evidence his defense is declining, considering he was perfectly mediocre with the glove last year by most metrics. Obviously, we have to see what he does this year, but I really think it’s a mistake to write him off as of now.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Further, there’s not really any evidence his defense is declining, considering he was perfectly mediocre with the glove last year by most metrics. Obviously, we have to see what he does this year, but I really think it’s a mistake to write him off as of now.
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I don’t recall saying his defense was declining. It was never really that good to begin with.
As far as his offense, yes, that’s a fairly consistent level of output and it’s certainly possible that last year was just a down year. I’m not one that particularly believes that, but I’ll certainly accept it as an argument.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Wait, what? Is this really what you meant to say? That his bad defense outweighs his good offense to form a below average player? Because, if so, I’m pretty sure you’re totally wrong.
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Justin, I wasn’t saying that Jeter was a below average player. I was simply saying that his offense does not make up for his defense as much as Posada, since Posada puts up great offensive numbers at a premium position. Whereas Jeter puts up good/great offensive numbers at a position where there are many other players better than him.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Here’s a twist, do you think the Yanks decision to keep/loose Jeter after 2010 will be more reliant on his production or the pr/marketing backlash?
Just an example, although not comparable in any way. I think we can assume that, for a large reason, A-Rod was retained because of the hundreds of millions in marketing dollars he’d bring in with a “clean” home run chase. That could very well bite the Yanks in the butt now…which kind of brings into the question are the Yankees more of a ball team or a traveling production show? Anyway, will Jeter be brought back because of the money he generates as the Captain of the Yankees, or will they recognize that a 38-year-old shortstop isn’t the best for the team and take a hit from the fans and the money they poor into the team through ticket, sales, memorabilia, etc.?
March 20th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
sorry, pour not poor…that was terrible grammar
March 20th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Here’s a twist, do you think the Yanks decision to keep/loose Jeter after 2010 will be more reliant on his production or the pr/marketing backlash?
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The PR/marketing, of course. All things being equal, the Yanks protect the brand much more than anything else.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
and take a hit from the fans and the money they pour into the team through ticket, sales, memorabilia, etc
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I should add, however, that I think the idea that there would be a fan backlash is totally overblown. Fans may talk tough and swear they’ll boycott on some moral grounds but they rarely ever follow through. I know I’ve made similar idle threats in my life.
Jeter would be missed and some fans would be really upset (as they were post-Bernie) but within a few weeks, it would all have blown over. Especially if the Yanks replaced Jeter with another marquee name, say someone like Hanley Ramirez…
March 20th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
All things being equal, the Yanks protect the brand much more than anything else.
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Agreed, in all honesty…why else do they brand themselves as “needing” to win a championship every year when everybody knows it’s impossible? It won’t matter, but I think they need a slight rebranding.
March 20th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
I don’t recall saying his defense was declining.
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You didn’t. I was just pointing it out. He’s still a good player as of now.
March 20th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I was simply saying that his offense does not make up for his defense as much as Posada, since Posada puts up great offensive numbers at a premium position. Whereas Jeter puts up good/great offensive numbers at a position where there are many other players better than him.
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Okay, I mostly agree with this. I would be careful, though, about overstating the number of shortstops who are better than Jeter in the league right now. He’s easily still one of the top ten.
Posada’s top two or three, though, so I see what you’re saying.