May 12
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May 12th, 2009 at 9:21 am
out of curiosity, anyone know if rocket had anything interesting to say today?
May 12th, 2009 at 9:26 am
Nothing new or interesting really, he did refer to him taking steroids as “virtual suicide” because of his family’s history of heart problems.
But it was all the same. All the allegations in the new book are false, McNamee never injected him with any steroids, hgh of PEDs and he’s extremely hurt and will keep fighting for his name.
The only two interesting notes I took out of it were he doesn’t talk to Andy Pettitte anymore for “legal reasons,” and that if Brett Favre comes back he’d have to consider coming back too (he was joking, of course…i hope).
May 12th, 2009 at 9:29 am
The only two interesting notes I took out of it were he doesn’t talk to Andy Pettitte anymore for “legal reasons,” and that if Brett Favre comes back he’d have to consider coming back too (he was joking, of course…i hope).
——-
he could be an interesting set up man if set up with the right pharmacy (i hear the DR has some killer b12 and lidocain)
May 12th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Just to add to that, it’s been so easy to sweep Roger under the rug and separate ourselves from him because of this mess. But listening to him talk, I was really reminded of how much I loved him as a Yankee and how much I enjoyed watching him pitch in so many big games for us. He was, most likely, using PEDs…but I guess these feelings are proof that those fond memories will never go away for me. Roger was the one guy we had when, even if he had his worst stuff, would still battle and find ways to win…and watching that battle was beautiful.
I know Roger is an afterthought right now but does anybody feel the same way?
May 12th, 2009 at 9:44 am
im not gonna lie, i was sad to see boomer get traded …i really felt for the guy cause he really loved being here, and he was one of my favorites…so add that with the fact that rocket played for the red sox for so long and then add the fact that he made the yankees look like a bunch of jerks by throwin the bat at piazza…i just dont have those warm fuzzy feelings
May 12th, 2009 at 9:50 am
I had a hate/hate relationship with Clemens. He was with Boston for so long that I felt like I didn’t want this guy on the Yanks and thank God he went to Toronto.Then he was traded for Boomer wells. honestly, Bommer wells is a big game pitcher so nobody thinksthat Bommer would have excelled in that role. I talked to so many people that were broken hearted after Boomer was traded. Boomer loved the franchise and the history of the team etc so on, Roger wanted rings, big difference.I didn’t like that Clemens headhunted and seemed to be a prick either. In essence, he gets what he deserves now. I had to tolerate him on the Yankees(the team I root for) and it was very hard to. The only thing worse would have been to see Pedro the Mango Man Martinez wear pinstripes.
May 12th, 2009 at 9:56 am
YankCrank wrote:
I enjoyed watching him pitch, that’s about it. Wasn’t too crazy about his 2nd round with the Yanks, but given the circumstances, I understand why he was signed.
May 12th, 2009 at 10:08 am
honestly, Bommer wells is a big game pitcher so nobody thinksthat Bommer would have excelled in that role.
——–
classic butichism…but butchie, im a lil disapointed, no nickname for the rocket?
May 12th, 2009 at 10:09 am
I think that was a typo, unless “Bommer” is Aussie slang for something…
May 12th, 2009 at 10:11 am
YankCrank wrote:
I loved Roger, even when he was in Boston. Yes, that’s crazy to hear from a Yanks fan but I’ve just always found his competitive streak infectious. To this day, the only “official jersey” I own is Roger’s #22 from the 2003 season (with the 100th anniversary patch). I will always love Roger, no matter what.
May 12th, 2009 at 10:12 am
steve – not sure where else to put this, but the new site looks great. i was going to get around to commenting on the most recent template (that was around for a month or so), and how difficult it was to read on my phone because of how much scrolling had to be done to get to posts/comments, which i like to do along with a few other sites while commuting about 20 minutes each way every day. this one, like the old old one, is very easy to read on the phone again. i’m not sure if you even care about something like this, but wanted to compliment you on it either way.
May 12th, 2009 at 10:17 am
I had to tolerate him on the Yankees(the team I root for) and it was very hard to.
—–
It must have been very, very difficult for you to tolerate an 83-42 record, avg. ERA of 4.00, avg. 192 Ks a year with two World Series rings, a Cy Young award and two All Star appearances.
I really, really weep for you and all of us Yankee fans who had to tolerate such inefficiency.
May 12th, 2009 at 10:21 am
I never fully understood the whole deal with how some fans didn’t embrace Clemens. If you could embrace Wade Boggs and be grateful that he was better at 3B than any Yankee since Nettles, why not embrace Clemens? Did his performance vs. the Mariners or A’s in the playoffs not get you totally pumped up? Wasn’t it fun to root for a real intimidator out there?
I loved every minute of Roger’s time in New York.
May 12th, 2009 at 10:24 am
I will always love Roger, no matter what.
——
Ditto. We certainly won’t be popular for feeling that way, but I can’t deny it.
May 12th, 2009 at 10:29 am
MJ wrote:
if i had to guess, it’s cause i didn’t see much of wade on the sox in my lifetime, whereas I saw a few years of Clemens on the sox (plus a lot more older footage of clemens on the sox then of wade on the sox when we played Clemens) Luck of the draw for me, i suppose….
May 12th, 2009 at 10:31 am
I had to tolerate him on the Yankees(the team I root for) and it was very hard to.
—–
Just to further comment on this, I know Boomer was a popular Yankee. I liked him a lot, and was also upset when he was traded. But nobody had to “tolerate” Roger Clemens. When we traded for Roger he had just come off a 20-6 season, with 271 Ks and five complete games. Make all the PED references you want, but at that time Roger was insanely dominant and no matter how much everyone loved Boomer, he wasn’t even comparable to Roger. You make that trade 100 out of 100 times and it won us two more rings. I understand you loved Boomer butch, but come on…try telling Pirates and Rangers fans that you had to tolerate that kind of player production.
May 12th, 2009 at 10:32 am
that and we didnt trade boomer for boggs…i loved the boomer, cant lie
May 12th, 2009 at 10:32 am
big game…
boomer + beer > clemens + PED
May 12th, 2009 at 10:42 am
MJ, remember that Mariners playoff game you just wrote about? Remember that up-and-in shot he gave to A-Rod that knocked him on his ass then struck him out with gas? Gorgeous
May 12th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Corey wrote:
Roger “Schlocket” Clemens ! Butch strikes again…….
May 12th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Raf wrote:
Yes,it’s Aussie “play” slang. I love Wells, he’s a real mate if there ever was one. Type of guy I’d have a blast hanging around. I liked the fact that when he came back to watch the Yanks in the new Stadium, he sat with us wee little people, the folks, the fans and not in the luxury boxes with the haughty frontrunners.
May 12th, 2009 at 11:22 am
Corey wrote:
Corey, we seem to be on the same bloody page about Wells. No one can tell me that Bommer wouldn’t have excelled in the 99/00/01 playoffs. I mean c’mon with Schlocket already. The fact that he juiced up and is still lying bout it tarnishes his legacy even more. One more thing, I don’t remember Rodger Dodger(yet another nickname, great movie too) hitting someone when he was in the NL. Correct me if I’m wrong because he wouldn’t want the risk of getting headhunted would he?
May 12th, 2009 at 11:27 am
YankCrank wrote:
No one had to tolerate him, bit your bloody tongue mate!!?? Shame on you for saying that. who in heaven’s name wanted Wells gone from the team? Even George had mixed feelings about trading him. I always thought Rodger Dodger was an asshole and continued to think so when he played with the team. That whole BS with Piazza was punkish. I hated that someone on this team would headhuint, that is the lowest of the low next to steroids, pitch tipping and screwing around with Madonna! Sorry , all things being equal they didn’t have to trade for teh Bommer and in the end the Yanks have the legacy of a juicer who arguably tainted Pettitte as well. Goodbye, Schlocket and good riddance!
May 12th, 2009 at 11:47 am
That whole BS with Piazza was punkish. I hated that someone on this team would headhuint, that is the lowest of the low next to steroids, pitch tipping and screwing around with Madonna! Sorry , all things being equal they didn’t have to trade for teh Bommer and in the end the Yanks have the legacy of a juicer who arguably tainted Pettitte as well. Goodbye, Schlocket and good riddance!
——
Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
May 12th, 2009 at 11:49 am
is that the penguin?!
May 12th, 2009 at 11:51 am
@ YankCrank:
LOL YankCrank!
O’Doyle Rules!
May 12th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
YankCrank wrote:
Yank Cracker you are not even sublimely be called an idiot YOU ARE ONE! Special apologies to Steve and the rest of the crew, but you crossed the bloody line with me. If you disagree with my assertion regarding Rodger Dodger THEN disprove it with words NOT an ad hominem attack. In essence, your response was very base. If you disagree with someone’s feelings about Clemens then do so .BUT you are not a gentleman(you are very rude) BUT rather very low in my book. It’s one thing to disagree with my words BUT a young whippesnapper 96 frontrunner like youself trying to discount an old fart such as myself is laughable!:) You remind me of a young moron I knew called Russell (is that your real name?),who had the self same attitude! Keep Clemens in your heart and enjoy his public slogging and one more bloody thing: Sod off fiend!
May 12th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
butchie:
I was just joking, my last comment was a line from the move Billy Madison. None of it was intentional, just a joke from a very funny movie
I assumed you’d get the joke, my apologies
May 12th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
the movie, not move
May 12th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
ank Cracker you are not even sublimely be called an idiot YOU ARE ONE! Special apologies to Steve and the rest of the crew, but you crossed the bloody line with me. If you disagree with my assertion regarding Rodger Dodger THEN disprove it with words NOT an ad hominem attack. In essence, your response was very base. If you disagree with someone’s feelings about Clemens then do so .BUT you are not a gentleman(you are very rude) BUT rather very low in my book. It’s one thing to disagree with my words BUT a young whippesnapper 96 frontrunner like youself trying to discount an old fart such as myself is laughable!:) You remind me of a young moron I knew called Russell (is that your real name?),who had the self same attitude! Keep Clemens in your heart and enjoy his public slogging and one more bloody thing: Sod off fiend!
—–
It’s also nice to see what you really think of me butch lol
May 12th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
YankCrank wrote:
Mate, it’s all good, glad that we’re still on the same team after all! I’m not an Adam Sandler fan, so I missed that one. Like I have said I’m a bloody old fart, so it goes to show you how tuned in to pop culture I am! I also missed Happy Gilmore and Little Nicky among others ,though I’ve heard that Little Nicky was his Heaven’s Gate and/or Waterworld.Very interesting about the quote,I will have to catch Billy Madison now……………….
Anyway with Schlocket/Rodger Dodger we can agree to disagree. It really killed so many Yankee fans that the Bommer got traded for such a hated player. Roger’s first year was iffy, so he was sent down to Tampa to work with Billy Connors.Afterwards, he did become quite an asset on the field for a team. He didn’t pitch his heart out in Game 7 of the 2001 World Series so I appreciated his efforts in that sense. However, that David Wells trade stuck in my craw because he was such a great character and a great player to boot….
May 12th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
@ butchie22:
watch billy madison and happy gillmore, thats all you really need
May 12th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
YankCrank wrote:
Dude, you have a sense of humor about it though ,good to for you! If I had know that quote was from Billy Madison, alas my response would have been different! Context is everything though…….
May 12th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
also big daddy was pretty good IIRC, havnt seen that in a while
May 12th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
Dude, you have a sense of humor about it though ,good to for you! If I had know that quote was from Billy Madison, alas my response would have been different! Context is everything though…….
—–
It’s all good Butch! No worries, we can totally agree to disagree. We usually do so that’s cool with me
May 12th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Corey wrote:
I caught part of that one because of Kristy Swanson, then couldn’t get into it. I actually did like the Wedding Singer,though. He is a Yankee fan though he grew up in the heart of the Red Pox Nation, New Hampshire. Good to know that he is not on the Dark Side, so to speak!
May 12th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
OK.. So on a lighter note.. Chien “Chicken Wing” Ming Wang pitches tonight for the Yankee AAA club.. All eyes are pointing to to him to have a remarkable Hip Flexor recovery.. (tongue and Cheek).. The non-sense the Yankee brass tries and spoon feed its fans is beyond anything the NATIONAL ENQUIRER or THE STAR can come up with….
So, how long before he gets the call up and how long before Dave Eiland has his bags packed for being maybe the worst pitching coach in Baseball?
May 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
YankCrank wrote:
I wish I had the exact quote, but in “Ball Four” Bouton mentioned that if there was a drug that gave pitchers 5 more MPH on their fastballs but would shorten their lives by 10 years, they’d take it without considering the consequences.
May 12th, 2009 at 12:54 pm
before Dave Eiland has his bags packed for being maybe the worst pitching coach in Baseball?
======
hes still better then gator was…but even so i want him out cause i want Cone in (as if you guys didnt know this by now)
May 12th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
hell he could bring hughes to condelstick park and maybe teach him out to pitch!
May 12th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Corey wrote:
?? Dave Eiland better than Gator as a pitching coach?.. Hmmmm.. I wonder how one determines this?.. Any stat that verifies this? or is this your opinion Corey?… As far as Cone is concern.. Never thought of it. but I was leaning towards Leo Mazzone… But Connie is a good choice too…
May 12th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Corey wrote:
Corey , I disagreed on this one with you. I like Cone as an analyst BUT that’s it. I don’t want a replay of Louisiana Lightning’s tenure. Then again Wang flourished under RG? Ironic ,unh? I don’t think that Eiland is necessarily better than Gator judging from his tenure thus far. I’m still in favor of bringing in Mazzone, who does have a track record unlike David”I was a RoyalBlueJayMetRedSoxYankee” Cone. On a team that has spent so much money(especially on pitching), said team needs an experienced pitching coach not another fan favorite to guide the pitchers.
May 12th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
i’ve heard a lot of pitchers in the booth and in the studio, and he’s the only one that sounds like he knows what he’s talking about to me
May 12th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
butchie22 wrote:
Butchie.. Well said mate… I say pay Mazzone what ever he wants and bring him in here…. Eiland had been nothing but a disappointment as far as I am concerned.. The whole pitching staff has digressed under his tutoring.. And the best is the Yankee brass This is where I scream and pull my hair out with these decisions… Their UNTOUCHABLE PROSPECT PHIL HUGHES.. LMAO!!.. is now in his hands!!… Yeah.. the blind leading the blind… Simply PRICELESS!!..
May 12th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Corey wrote:
..
Not to get off this topic.. but that sounds like what people said about General Joe…. Not that I disagree with Cone as a pitching coach.. but, would rather have Mazzone in here..
May 12th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
what has mazzone done with a pitching staff that doesnt include hall of famers?
May 12th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Their UNTOUCHABLE PROSPECT PHIL HUGHES.. LMAO!!.. is now in his hands!!
——-
Phil Hughes was in Eiland’s hands when they were both in the minor leagues. Eiland got the job in large part due to his work with Hughes, Kennedy and Chamberlain in 2006 and 2007.
May 12th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
what has mazzone done with a pitching staff that doesnt include hall of famers?
——-
Mazzone was fired in Baltimore because O’s pitchers weren’t responding to his lessons. There was even talk of how his personality wasn’t conducive to coaching young players. I can’t speak to the latter but it is certainly worth mentioning that Mazzone’s fame does have a lot to do with the fact that the bulk of his career was spent with Glavine, Maddux and Smoltz.
May 12th, 2009 at 2:15 pm
MJ wrote:
i know, this was my counter pint to the mazzone lovers
May 12th, 2009 at 2:21 pm
@ MJ:
MJ wrote:
So your point is that Phil Hughes and IPK have done well so far??.. Point taken on Joba.. but, what about the rest of the kids?.. Seems to be your basing your opinion on the success on ONE PITCHER?… OK… you stick with that, and I’ll take my chances with another pitching coach and in a year lets compare notes… Or Maybe Joba is one of those exceptions to the rule and under any pitching coach he will flourish?.. Nah couldn’t be.. right?.. Thats all Eilands great teaching… Hmm.. Thank Heavens he doesn;t get paid by the success on each pitcher.. but then again… maybe he should……
May 12th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
So your point is that Phil Hughes and IPK have done well so far??.. Point taken on Joba.. but, what about the rest of the kids?.. Seems to be your basing your opinion on the success on ONE PITCHER?… OK… you stick with that, and I’ll take my chances with another pitching coach and in a year lets compare notes… Or Maybe Joba is one of those exceptions to the rule and under any pitching coach he will flourish?.. Nah couldn’t be.. right?.. Thats all Eilands great teaching… Hmm.. Thank Heavens he doesn;t get paid by the success on each pitcher.. but then again… maybe he should……
——–
No, that wasn’t my point at all. I was merely pointing out that Eiland had a lot of success working with the organization’s young pitchers in his previous post as pitching coach down in the minor leagues. To say that Eiland is not a good pitching coach and cite Hughes’s struggles in the big leagues would be an odd confusion of causation/correlation given how much success Hughes (and Kennedy) had in the minor leagues.
May 12th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Corey wrote:
So what your saying is that Maddox, Galvin and Smoltz made Mazzone and that Mazzone didn’t make them?… Is that what your saying?..
As far as anyone else he has taken under his wing.. Hmm I wonder if you ask Denny Neagle, Jarret Wright who turned their careers around?.. But then again,. If memory severs me correctly. Didn’t Glavine’s career regress after he left Atlanta? Maddox also and lets see how Smoltz does this year.. But I am sure you will come back and tell me you can’t expect too much from and ageing and injured pitcher like Smoltz.. ..
May 12th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
So your point is that Phil Hughes and IPK have done well so far??
—–
Phil Hughes is 22-years-old, and IPK is 23. Both are extremely young at this point and have shown flashes of brilliance, and flashes of inconsistency…exactly what most young, talented pitchers do through their development. Maybe you should temper your expectations on them just a little bit for now and give them a chance to grow into their roles. At the same time, maybe you shouldn’t label Eiland a failure for the same reasons. These two flourished in the minors, under Eiland’s guidance, so you can’t blame the Yankees for taking a chance on the same magic working at the major league level.
May 12th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Sicilian Lou wrote:
yup thats pretty much exactly what im saying…glavine was an old man once he left atlanta, as well as “Maddox” and so is Smoltz…
denny neagle was pitching well for the pirates for a year and a half when the braves got him…to say mazzone created maddux is a joke as he was a stud from the cubs who already knew how to pitch when the braves got him
May 12th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
MJ wrote:
Well, goes to prove my point a.. Eiland might have helped them in the minors and their stats might be impressive but this is the Big Leagues and you get paid to get Big League players out..
Maybe Eiland just doesn’t have the craft or experience to handle this Billion dollar staff like most of us think… I just want to know how long will it take before its too late?..
May 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Well, goes to prove my point a.. Eiland might have helped them in the minors and their stats might be impressive but this is the Big Leagues and you get paid to get Big League players out..
Maybe Eiland just doesn’t have the craft or experience to handle this Billion dollar staff like most of us think… I just want to know how long will it take before its too late?..
———
Actually that doesn’t prove your point at all. For your point to be proven, there would be an underlying assumption that a coach is only a good coach if every pitcher he coaches succeeds in the major leagues. Your argument breaks down because (1) it is inconsistent with what he already know of Hughes/Kennedy’s success in the minor leagues and (2) given your admiration of Leo Mazzone, doesn’t reconcile Mazzone’s failures in Balitmore or with other Atlanta pitchers that didn’t succeed.
May 12th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Sicilian Lou wrote:
Neagle was doing well before he was traded to the Braves, Wright, OTOH wasn’t. Then again, Wright and Mazzone were reunited in Baltimore, and Wright didn’t do much worth mentioning there.
Glavine didn’t regress after leaving Atlanta as he wasn’t doing too well the 2nd half of 2002. Statistically speaking, from a FIP view, 2003 (4.73) is similar to 2001 (4.77) and 2004 (4.24) is similar to 2002 (4.20)
May 12th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
YankCrank wrote:
Woooo Dude.. Cool your jets.. First off all I said what that Hughes is under Eilands watch.. And I find it funny that the Yankee’s think Eiland is this great pitching coach.. But I failed to read this room correctly because now there appears to be more than the Yankee brass who think Eiland is a pitching coach guru too!!…
Hughes might have done well in the minors but this is the big leagues where it counts the most…. The IRONY here is that the Yankee pitching staff currently isn’t having much success under Eiland and they are mostly Vets.. So for me to compare Eilands success is rightly justified…So when I say how would the Yankees expect Hughes to have any success.. well, the correlation has little or no baring on the matter.by your own account!..
Minor league stats aside but BIG difference between big league hitters and AAA… I can only hope you at least know the difference….
But since you pointed out that both Hughes an IPK are so young,, you sound like other Yankee fans who still can’t prove to me why Hughes is untouchable other than he is 22 years old… LAUGHABLE to say the least…
How about facing the facts that this kid one day might be a good pitcher but not in NY.. He just cant handle the fish bow media and fans like me who know that he is just HYPE!!!… But you keep holding out like many other Yankee fans for this kid to turn it around…But I am sure you the same Yankee fan that didn’t want Hughes traded for Johan Santana!!!! !…. Ohhh by the way, how did that trade turn out for us ??… Hmmm lets see.. 24 wins for the Mets and a combine 1 win for the Yankees.. YEAH .. Is it a wonder Cashman still has his job?… But hey what do I know..I am arguing with you about Dave Eiland and his success as a minor league pitching coach and some how will translate in success in the big leagues!!….
As far as I am concern this ship on Hughes not only has sailed… It sunk half way thru the journey… Class dismissed!!..
May 12th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
@ Corey:
. Your argument breaks down because (1) it is inconsistent with what he already know of Hughes/Kennedy’s success in the minor leagues …
But Please tell me where this matters in the BIG LEAGUES?.. Your bias is reeking its ugly head here or is that Man Love?.. Where is the Success in the big leagues?…
(2) given your admiration of Leo Mazzone, doesn’t reconcile Mazzone’s failures in Balitmore or with other Atlanta pitchers that didn’t succeed.
I think your confused here.. I want Mazzone for a pitching coach because he has had success at this level!!.. As far as failure in Baltimore..Well my friend perhaps you should read a book called THE BASEBALL ECONOMIST by JC Bradbury… In there is a chapter called How good is Leo Mazzone? just to give you the short of it.. Stats show pitchers under Leo drop their era by .64.. and after he leaves they rise by .78… NOW maybe, just maybe this has something to do with my respect for this coach.. But, I can see why you LOVE EILAND!!… Laughable to say….
May 12th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Stats show pitchers under Leo drop their era by .64.. and after he leaves they rise by .78
That could be for any number of reasons, which may or may not be independent of the pitching coach. Glavine’s numbers I posted earlier is an example of this, there wasn’t/isn’t much statistical variation to make a difference one way or the other.
Having said this, I would say that pitching coaches don’t make much of a difference at this level, whether it’s Mazone or Eiland, I’m sure they’d get similar results with this staff. The staff performed similar with Guidry, Stottlemyre and Eiland as the pitching coaches.
May 12th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
Well my friend perhaps you should read a book called THE BASEBALL ECONOMIST by JC Bradbury… In there is a chapter called How good is Leo Mazzone? just to give you the short of it.. Stats show pitchers under Leo drop their era by .64.. and after he leaves they rise by .78…
———-
You realize that this book was written while Mazzone was in Atlanta and that, as pitching coach of the Orioles, his pitchers had the 2nd worst ERA in baseball over those two years?
FWIW, I’m not trying to knock Mazzone and I happen to agree with his most basic principle of pitching (establishing the fastball low-and-away), but you seem to think that this particular pitching coach holds magical powers and simply hiring him will change everything.
Your arguments are inconsistent. First you say Hughes might turn into a good pticher one day, but not in New York, where the media scrutiny is too great. Then you say that Eiland’s not a good pitching coach and the evidence is in the fact that he hasn’t been able to coach Hughes in the big leagues. Assuming Mazzone is master you say he is, that would mean that Hughes CAN succeed in New York because it’s an issue of coaching. But if Hughes can’t succeed because of your inference that he lacks the mental toughness for New York, then what difference would Mazzone make anyway? Mazzone can’t teach NY Media Relations 101, or can he? I’d doubt it since, by your own inference, every other MLB city is easier to survive in than New York and, last I checked, Mazzone had never coached in New York…
May 12th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Raf wrote:
and Neagle did even better when he rejoined with Mazzone too.. Feeble attempt to dismiss the obvious… and Wright was at the point where he was begging to re-join with Mazzone because his mechanics were so messed up… Amazing.. Not every player has to be a hall famer for a pitching coach to successfull.. But the one thing he should know… He should know something about getting big league hitters out and that;s something Eiland doesn’t know!.
May 12th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
I think your confused here.. I want Mazzone for a pitching coach because he has had success at this level!!.. As far as failure in Baltimore.
—-
we told you why his success might be tainted my friend, read my post above
May 12th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
well not tainted, misguided i should say
May 12th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
and Wright was at the point where he was begging to re-join with Mazzone because his mechanics were so messed up
========
and then mazzone failed? is that supposed to help your point?
May 12th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Raf wrote:
Raf, I agree and disagree about pitching coaches. Look at Brad Arnsberg in Toronto. It seems that their pitching staff is Doc and the Mysteries this year and he has people like Richmond(former independent leaguer) and Tallet(mostly a reliever) pitching decently for them. There are people like Downs and Camp that they got off the scrap heap and turned into viable pitching entites. In that case, the pitching coach has some sway. Contrary to the contrarians, Mazzone had an excellent effect in Atlanta.People forget how good he made pitchers like Hammond and Wright look when they were under his tutelage. And we can’t forget how mediocre they were for the Yankees and the last time I checked Hammond or Wright were not Hall of Famers! In Baltimore, he didn’t have enough time to enact his changes so the point is moot in that case.
May 12th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
and Neagle did even better when he rejoined with Mazzone too.. Feeble attempt to dismiss the obvious…
?
Denny Neagle became a full time starter in 1994. His FIP’s
94: 4.20
95: 3.60
96: 4.04 (3.84 Pirates, 5.01 Braves)
97: 3.34
98: 4.06
99: 5.63 (with Reds)
So he was trending well with the Pirates, jumped when he went to the Braves, had a career year with the B
May 12th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
doh, a bit quick on the draw…
Career year in 1997, increased in 98, and increased again in 99…
May 12th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
wasn’t hammond in the mitchell report or suspected of PED use? i could be wrong here, i’m not sure
May 12th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Corey wrote:
Corey, no offense BUT Mazzone has a gazillion times more games of experience than Cone has. Cone doesn’t even have one game of experience as a coach!??!!Gym Teacher Joe sounded like he was the most brilliant observer of the game and what happened? I like Joe BUT is he as brilliant as he was in the booth?Sorry, I’ll take Mazzone any time because people who he turned around cam here(like Wright and Hammond) became lesser pitchers here.Quite frankly, Mazzone had a long time in Atlanta to implement his philosophy whereas he didn’t enjoy that same time in Baltimore. I also though that Mazzone was ultimately let go because of his tightness with Palazzo in the end? He also did a decent job with Guthrie,Lowen and Bedard BTW. Even still he didn’t have the luxury to do what he did with the Braves because of the brevity of his tenure.
May 12th, 2009 at 4:53 pm
Corey wrote:
It doesn’t matter, because that was one of Cash Man’s Follies anyway. Mazzone did a good job with him and then he came to the Bronx and became less than advertised. Then again that’s par for the course with Cash Man……
May 12th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Corey, no offense BUT Mazzone has a gazillion times more games of experience than Cone has.
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lol i can’t possibly take offense from that, its fact
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I also though that Mazzone was ultimately let go because of his tightness with Palazzo in the end?
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wasnt mazzone the best man a palazzo’s wedding? I think he was fired cause the orioles pitching staff sucked
May 12th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
@ butchie22:
Richmond’s a nice story, but he’s due for a heck of a correction. Tallett is doing well so far, start against the Royals notwithstanding, but he’s probably better in the pen.
It’s still early, and the jury is still out on the both of them, but ZiPS isn’t looking upon them too kindly.
May 12th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
butchie22 wrote:
Actually Hammond did a decent job when he was here. I don’t know if anyone was expecting him to replicate his 2002 season, I would’ve said they were crazy if they were.
May 12th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
@ MJ:
NOPE.. Not what I am saying… What I am saying is that under Eiland the NY Yankee pitching staff regressed… What I find funny is that Hughes is under his watch..
The Yankee staff that has vet pitchers are not doing well for one reason or another.. I think its Eiland’s poor preparation plan of these Vet pitchers that is the cause of it..
Hughes as we all know has had a miserable time trying to show he belongs in the ML.. Even all his success at the minor league level he still can’t transform this at the ML level..
if Eiland is having a a difficult time with the Vets how can we expect him to turn Hughes around?… Thats my point and frustration with the Yankee brass..
Also, on a different view, I don;t think Hughes is all that Great.. all hype… he might be a good pitcher… Not sure.. Will he be a Johan?.. No…. but maybe a decent number three or four starter… Thats my view on what he has shown at the ML level… The jury is still out but the verdict is about to be read soon.. And it doesn’t look good……
May 12th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Raf wrote:
Excuse me where did you get these stats?
Stats I have show Neagel 1997 20 5 2.97
1998 16 11 3.55
Spin it anyway you want.. but your looking at guy before he came over to Atlantan who had a era of 4.05, 4.48, 5.31, 5.12, 3.50 from pitching all but 20 games in the NL….
May 12th, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Raf wrote:
HIs ERA was something like a .098 under Mazzone and was 2.68 ERA under the Yankees. He wasn’t as great as he was with the Braves and Cash Man traded him to Oakland for a reason.
May 12th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
Corey wrote:
You are overstating the case on Mazzone. He had 12 years of great success and two not so great years with Baltimore. @ years is a very small sample size vs 12 years of amazing success with so many reclamation projects. Coney though? why not Ed Whitsun, while we’re at it? HAHAHHAHAH!
May 12th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
Sicilian Lou wrote:
Lo we agree, you have any relativesustralia…we might be related! Ditto on what you said about the veterans etc so on. I honestly can’t say that Eiland is better or worse than Guidry at this point. I don’t think Hughes is as great as advertised. The kid has potential BUT he doesn’t seem to be ready yet. And he seems to be a 3/4th pitcher not an ace at this point. Good call,mate.
May 12th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
@ Raf:
Are you and MJ just posters here or are you writers of this blog along with Steve?…. Just would like to know who I talk to .. Thanks and it was a good spirited debate today!!….
May 12th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Raf wrote:
Tallet threw a no hitter into the 7th recently. He has done well so far and they have stretched pitchers before and will again. Richmond is good and I don’t know about any correction, there is nothing to indicate that he will be much worse.
May 12th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
@ Lou I meant to say: Lou we agree, you have any relatives in Australia, we might be related!
May 12th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Sicilian Lou wrote:
I got the numbers from Fangraps. I used the Fielding Independent Pitching (FIP) stat, which reflects how a pitcher has done with the things he is able to control…
Not to go too in depth, but here’s a great article about evaluating pitching
http://ussmariner.com/2006/08/29/evaluating-pitcher-talent/
May 12th, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Sicilian Lou wrote:
MJ & I are posters. Steve has a one man show here
And I agree, good debate
May 12th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
butchie22 wrote:
Richmond is good and I don’t know about any correction, there is nothing to indicate that he will be much worse.
Given the discrepancy between his ERA & FIP (1.18), I’d say that he’s due for a correction.
ZiPS has him projected @ 9-12, 5.47 (5.35 FIP)
May 12th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
butchie22 wrote:
As a matter of Fact I do mate… Sydney… I haven’t made my way there .. I am waiting for them to finish building that bridge that connects the mainlands.. LOL!!
May 12th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Pat F wrote:
Thanks. I’m trying to keep in very simple. At the most, I might go for a larger WW banner at the top…something like what I have now…just in a 750×150 size format. I’m still mulling that over. What I really like about the new format is that you can click the down arrows on the widget boxes on the side, and then they stay closed, even after refreshing. It’s helpful when you want to hide graphics…in case someone at work may be looking at over your shoulder…or if you want to have the widget for the recent comments be the only one pen, etc.
Never thought about the phone angle…but, it’s nice to know. Thanks again,