• WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 5/28/09

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    1. Tresh Fan
      May 28th, 2009 | 10:01 am

      I awoke this morning to the startling fact that the Yankees are a 1st Place ballclub, and to the gut feeling that, despite a horrendous middle relief corps and a growing DL, they are capable at this juncture of beating any team in the American League—except the Red Sox. And I wonder what that says about the Junior Circuit in 2009? The lack of any dominant team could raise the pennant at any one of a half dozen or more ballparks. So why not the new Yankee Stadium?

    2. MJ
      May 28th, 2009 | 10:41 am

      they are capable at this juncture of beating any team in the American League—except the Red Sox
      ——-
      Just because they haven’t yet doesn’t mean they’re incapable of doing so. Do you actually believe the Yanks will lose all 19 games against Boston this year? I sure don’t.

    3. Tresh Fan
      May 28th, 2009 | 10:52 am

      @ MJ:

      Whoa, now! I said “at this juncture” didn’t I? And “at this juncture” the Yankees are 0-5 against the Red Sox. But that’s not even the point. The point is that there isn’t any clearly dominant team in the AL this year so it is conceivable that any one of a half dozen or more teams are capable of winning the pennant—including the Yankees.

    4. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 11:15 am

      Speaking of middle relief for the NY Yankees, I am sure this conversation did happen before, but I was wondering what some peoples thoughts are here on Joba as a starter and setup guy to Mo?..

      On another board I had a 6 hour conversation with about 100 posters and I was wondering what are the smart people here think one way or another?

    5. Raf
      May 28th, 2009 | 11:23 am

      @ Sicilian Lou:

      I prefer Joba as a starter, and think it would be a waste to move him to the pen. As a #4 or #5, health permitting, he should be able to reach whatever innings limitation is placed on him. The same applies to Hughes as well.

    6. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 11:28 am

      Thank You RAJ.. Appreciate your thoughts here.. and I came across some interesting thoughts yesterday too.. I am on the other side of the fence with Joba,, And arguments can be made for both sides, but my view on Joba is slightly different not because I don’t think he can be a GREAT starter, but more in line about replacing the Great Mariano Rivera..
      i was wondering if you may share your thoughts about who might replace Mo if its not Joba then?….

    7. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 11:30 am

      Anyone else with thoughts about Joba as a Starter or Relief person?.. Where are all the supporters one way or another?.. Lets have the discussion.. After all this is the room of Logic as I like to call it!!.. Hey Steve, that includes you too..

    8. Corey
      May 28th, 2009 | 11:40 am

      let’s see, when Hughes struggles he’s gotta just work out some kinks and young pitchers are going through growing pains with his 5+ ERA (only after his last performance is it that low mind you) while joba, has struggled and his era is still under 4 and we call him out and want to send him to the pen. Imagine once he gets it all figured out? That’s our next staff ace (after he overcomes CC). If we used Francessian logic to figure this out, wouldn’t CC be a better closer then Joba? He’s left handed and throws the same speed, and his pitches are just as devastatign. (note i’m not advocating CC to the pen)

    9. MJ
      May 28th, 2009 | 11:54 am

      I can’t believe there is still talk about Joba to the bullpen. At what point do people realize that you don’t confine someone with three (and arguably four) quality major league pitches to a relief role? At what point do people realize that 180 innings are more valuable than 60? And at what point do people stop worrying about figuring out who Rivera’s replacement will be. At the time Rivera needs to be replaced, the issue will be dealt with then. Right now, there’s no point in worrying about it, let alone pigeonholing someone like Chamberlain to the bullpen, especially if it is to begin grooming him for the 9th inning role.

      Does no one remember 1995? Rivera was a horrendous starter for a reason, folks: he only has 1 truly good MLB pitch. Chamberlain has at least 3. These are not similar pitchers and each is best suited for the role they are in at present.

    10. Raf
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:04 pm

      Sicilian Lou wrote:

      my view on Joba is slightly different not because I don’t think he can be a GREAT starter, but more in line about replacing the Great Mariano Rivera..
      i was wondering if you may share your thoughts about who might replace Mo if its not Joba then?….

      Well, before Mo, there was Wetteland, Steve Howe, Steve Farr & Dave Righetti… Do we count Xavier Hernandez?

      Anyway, when Mo decides that he has had enough, the Yanks will find another closer, be it in house (Dave Righetti), FA (Steve Farr, Goose Gossage), off the scrap heap (Steve Howe), or via trade (John Wetteland).

    11. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:04 pm

      @ MJ:

      Mj, first thanks for the input appreciate your time and thoughts.. by saying don;t worry about who will replace Mo, when the time is right they will figure it out?.. That’s what scares the hell out me.. I view it as who really has been the MVP for the Yankees the last 14 years?.. Filling Mo shoes in this media craze city and with fans who have been spoiled is not going to be easy.. In fact good luck trying to find that guy who knows he will always be compared to Mo.. Pressure aside in pitching in this fish bowl, I am not so sure if there is anyone out there other than Joba IMO who can handle it….

    12. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:08 pm

      Corey wrote:

      let’s see, when Hughes struggles he’s gotta just work out some kinks and young pitchers are going through growing pains with his 5+ ERA (only after his last performance is it that low mind you) while joba, has struggled and his era is still under 4 and we call him out and want to send him to the pen. Imagine once he gets it all figured out? That’s our next staff ace (after he overcomes CC). If we used Francessian logic to figure this out, wouldn’t CC be a better closer then Joba? He’s left handed and throws the same speed, and his pitches are just as devastatign. (note i’m not advocating CC to the pen)

      That’s an intersting point corey.. Thanks…but would you say it takes a differnet mental approach to relief than to pitch?.. More than just stats alone.. But more like heres the ball, game or series on the line, its up to you to stop here…

    13. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:11 pm

      @ Raf:

      Glad you brought that up Raf.. I only see Goosage and Wetland as guys that took the Yankees deep into the postseason and WS.. wouldn’t you also say that Joba could do the same for us too?…

    14. MJ
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:11 pm

      Sicilian Lou wrote:

      @ MJ:
      Mj, first thanks for the input appreciate your time and thoughts.. by saying don;t worry about who will replace Mo, when the time is right they will figure it out?.. That’s what scares the hell out me.. I view it as who really has been the MVP for the Yankees the last 14 years?.. Filling Mo shoes in this media craze city and with fans who have been spoiled is not going to be easy.. In fact good luck trying to find that guy who knows he will always be compared to Mo.. Pressure aside in pitching in this fish bowl, I am not so sure if there is anyone out there other than Joba IMO who can handle it….

      Just because Joba can handle it (although we don’t actually know that yet, but that’s besides the point), that doesn’t make it the correct course of action. As Corey said, Sabathia could potentially be a great reliever too but we wouldn’t move him to the bullpen either.

      I know it’s scary to think of a time when Rivera WON’T be our 9th inning guy but I’m sure the Yanks will be ok. We may never have a guy as great as Rivera ever again — chances are we won’t since he’s clearly a Hall of Fame caliber pitcher — but I still think it’s not an issue worth focusing on right now. The Red Sox have a good closer right now but they had no idea that Papelbon would be their closer before circumstances determined that he would be moved to the bullpen. The Twins turned a setup man on the Giants (Joe Nathan) into one of the best closers in the game. The Mets signed their two most recent closers via free agency (Wagner/K-Rod). The point is that we’ll find our closer when the time is right. As it is, Mark Melancon may still be the guy to inherit the role.

    15. MJ
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:13 pm

      Sicilian Lou wrote:

      @ Raf:
      Glad you brought that up Raf.. I only see Goosage and Wetland as guys that took the Yankees deep into the postseason and WS.. wouldn’t you also say that Joba could do the same for us too?…

      It’s not just Goose and Wetteland that took the Yanks deep into the playoffs and WS. It was Reggie and Nettles and Chambliss and Thurman and Catfish and Sparky Lyle…and Jeter, Bernie, Paulie, Girardi, Jimmy Key and David Cone too.

    16. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:16 pm

      @ MJ:

      MJ, you will be surprised how many other boards are filled with this conversation.. Also Thanks for the reply and thoughts, can I ask you what your thought are about this:

      what makes more sense to you if Joba is a starter and we all know he could be a great starter injury aside of course but lets say he avg. 18 wins a year for the next 10 years.. 180 wins

      But if he replaces Mo and saves 35 games for 10 years.. well thats 350 wins locked up.. which is the best value for the Yankees?….

    17. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:19 pm

      MJ wrote:

      Sicilian Lou wrote:
      @ Raf:
      Glad you brought that up Raf.. I only see Goosage and Wetland as guys that took the Yankees deep into the postseason and WS.. wouldn’t you also say that Joba could do the same for us too?…
      It’s not just Goose and Wetteland that took the Yanks deep into the playoffs and WS. It was Reggie and Nettles and Chambliss and Thurman and Catfish and Sparky Lyle…and Jeter, Bernie, Paulie, Girardi, Jimmy Key and David Cone too.

      I fully understand that. I didn;t mean to imply that they are the sole reason but the guy who held the forth down and when needed got the tough 3,6 or in Goosage case 9 outs… The guy that when he came out of the bullpen, the opposing team just knew they have no shot at coming back… again thanks for your input….

    18. Evan3457
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:20 pm

      Lou:

      I am already resigned to the point that whoever replaces Mo will not be as successful; could not possibly be as successful.

      There are thus two theories on how the organization should find his successor; take the bid in hand with Joba, or go outside for a closer who will, by definition, be inferior.

      I think the Yanks are better served by testing Joba’s limits as a starter for one simple reason: the ace starter is the trump card of postseason baseball. People say it’s the ace closer, but, as the Yanks proved in 2001-7, this is not so. The ace starter not only dominates the other team’s offense, but he also can keep the top closer out of play, but never allowing the other team to get a lead to save.

      If Joba can become that ace postseason starter, then that’s where he should go, because nobody else on the Yanks’ staff has proven the ability to do that, not even Sabathia, whose postseason record is poor, to say the least.

      I think the Yanks should pursue Joba in the rotation until he either breaks down physically, or he proves that he’ll never be a frontline starter.

      Anything else, in my point of view, is a waste of organizational resources, because it’s easier to find good setup relievers than it is to find ace starters.

    19. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:24 pm

      @ MJ:

      I agree MJ to a certain point.. Stats aside, points about one direction or another can be made.. I am thinking in lines that why chance the unknow with trying to acquire a closer why not just lock your future up for the next 10 or 12 years and keep the machine rolling along?… start the process now and who better than Mo can Joba learn from?…

    20. Corey
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:26 pm

      ok how about this situation lou:

      would you take a starter of the Jarret Wright type then have joba close
      or
      joba close then have a closer of the isringhousen type

      i picked wright and isringhousen off the top of my head cause those are the types of pitchers that would be easily aquired via trade or free agency

      note: im not referring to those specific guys, just their types. cause that’s what is available.

      Do you see how much it cost to get CC? The best starting pitcher on the market cost a rediculous amount of money. What about the best closer? K-Rod only got 3/$37 mil. I would rather bring up Joba and buy the closer at those rates

    21. MJ
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:28 pm

      Sicilian Lou wrote:

      @ MJ:
      MJ, you will be surprised how many other boards are filled with this conversation.. Also Thanks for the reply and thoughts, can I ask you what your thought are about this:
      what makes more sense to you if Joba is a starter and we all know he could be a great starter injury aside of course but lets say he avg. 18 wins a year for the next 10 years.. 180 wins
      But if he replaces Mo and saves 35 games for 10 years.. well thats 350 wins locked up.. which is the best value for the Yankees?….

      A save is a ridiculous statistic. It more or less only tells you who was on the mound for the final out of a game decided by three runs or less. As we’ve seen around baseball, any old scrub can earn a save, let alone nearly 300 hundred of them (Armando Benitez and his 289 saves come to mind…).

      To answer your question, it’s far more valuable to have the starting pitcher than the closer, although I wouldn’t put it in the statistical terms you use. You’re creating a relationship between 180 wins and 350 saves and simply picking the bigger number. You have to look at it in terms of innings and runs saved. 180 high quality innings a year for 10 years vs. 60 high quality innings a year. The runs saved metric would make the good starting pitcher much more valuable than the reliever.

    22. Corey
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:28 pm

      the second option i meant to have joba start, although you probably figured that out

    23. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:29 pm

      @ Evan3457:

      Thats great point Evan.. and thank you.. like I said this is the room of logic… I never looked at it like that… Although, from what I have seen in Joba coming out of the pen, you can sense that the opposing team just knew we are done for it now becasue Mo is right behind him…
      question Evan.. wasn;t it Bobby Valentine who said ” give me a great bullpen and I can win with 5 ok starters”.. I guess that’s what i look at.. Front end aces are not easy to come by but Closers to me are harder to come by…

    24. Corey
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:30 pm

      isn’t it Bobby Valentine that manages in Japan? and not the mlb?

    25. MJ
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:35 pm

      Front end aces are not easy to come by but Closers to me are harder to come by…
      ———-
      Nothing could be further from the truth. Again, ANYONE can earn a save. Not everyone can dominate another team for 7-8 innings over the course of 200+ innings. You’re telling me that it’s harder to find a relief pitcher than it is to find a Santana/Sabathia/Hamels type that dominates every time out? As someone pointed out already, the market disagrees which is why Santana/Sabathia are paid what they are paid and why the Mets just got K-Rod for a lot less money than you’d think one would earn for having set the MLB saves record a few months earlier.

      Saves are a bullshit stat.

    26. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:38 pm

      Corey wrote:

      ok how about this situation lou:
      would you take a starter of the Jarret Wright type then have joba close
      or
      joba close then have a closer of the isringhousen type
      i picked wright and isringhousen off the top of my head cause those are the types of pitchers that would be easily aquired via trade or free agency
      note: im not referring to those specific guys, just their types. cause that’s what is available.
      Do you see how much it cost to get CC? The best starting pitcher on the market cost a rediculous amount of money. What about the best closer? K-Rod only got 3/$37 mil. I would rather bring up Joba and buy the closer at those rates

      Corey another great point.. Thank you… its tough to answer.. And I understand your using Wright as an example, i would have to say if Wright started I would want Joba finishing it.. If Joba started, well, Isringhouser, are we talking the old or now?…

    27. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:41 pm

      Corey wrote:

      isn’t it Bobby Valentine that manages in Japan? and not the mlb?

      LOL.. Yeah but he did say it while in the ML!!.. besides I think he likes the sushi there….

    28. MJ
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:41 pm

      Front end aces are not easy to come by but Closers to me are harder to come by…
      ——–
      Put another way, think back to the pre-2003 Red Sox. Would they have been better off with a stud closer instead of Pedro Martinez? Pedro was the only thing (literally) that kept them in ballgames. Vintage Pedro and no bullpen and Boston was STILL better off than the other way around.

    29. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:45 pm

      MJ wrote:

      Front end aces are not easy to come by but Closers to me are harder to come by…
      ———-
      Nothing could be further from the truth. Again, ANYONE can earn a save. Not everyone can dominate another team for 7-8 innings over the course of 200+ innings. You’re telling me that it’s harder to find a relief pitcher than it is to find a Santana/Sabathia/Hamels type that dominates every time out? As someone pointed out already, the market disagrees which is why Santana/Sabathia are paid what they are paid and why the Mets just got K-Rod for a lot less money than you’d think one would earn for having set the MLB saves record a few months earlier.
      Saves are a bullshit stat.

      Again thank you for your thoughts.. no doubt about it, the market does tell us that Front end ptichers are a very costly item… and that perhaps my view on Closers is overly inflated…..

    30. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:50 pm

      MJ wrote:

      Front end aces are not easy to come by but Closers to me are harder to come by…
      ——–
      Put another way, think back to the pre-2003 Red Sox. Would they have been better off with a stud closer instead of Pedro Martinez? Pedro was the only thing (literally) that kept them in ballgames. Vintage Pedro and no bullpen and Boston was STILL better off than the other way around.

      This is the same example I came across yesterday and it make sense..but, not having that true stopper in the pen cost them to go deeper into October… And I know without Pedro they don;t even get to October..

    31. Corey
      May 28th, 2009 | 12:59 pm

      Sicilian Lou wrote:

      Corey wrote:
      ok how about this situation lou:
      would you take a starter of the Jarret Wright type then have joba close
      or
      joba close then have a closer of the isringhousen type
      i picked wright and isringhousen off the top of my head cause those are the types of pitchers that would be easily aquired via trade or free agency
      note: im not referring to those specific guys, just their types. cause that’s what is available.
      Do you see how much it cost to get CC? The best starting pitcher on the market cost a rediculous amount of money. What about the best closer? K-Rod only got 3/$37 mil. I would rather bring up Joba and buy the closer at those rates
      Corey another great point.. Thank you… its tough to answer.. And I understand your using Wright as an example, i would have to say if Wright started I would want Joba finishing it.. If Joba started, well, Isringhouser, are we talking the old or now?…

      so you would take the average Wright pitching 4-5 innings with 4+ runs allowed? What are the odds Joba even gets a shot outta the pen at that point?

      My point is, signing free agent starting pitchers doesn’t work, we’ve seen this on our team for the past few years now. You end up with Pavano’s and Wright’s.

    32. Raf
      May 28th, 2009 | 1:01 pm

      Sicilian Lou wrote:

      Front end aces are not easy to come by but Closers to me are harder to come by…

      Joe Borowski saved a decent number of games, so did David Weathers. Matter of fact, I would say that in many cases, closers are/were failed starters.

      John Smoltz, Derek Lowe, and maybe Tim Wakefield, are the few pitchers I can think off the top of my head that went back and forth between starting and closing, and excelled. Maybe Braden Looper, but he’s more of a back end starter.

    33. Raf
      May 28th, 2009 | 1:03 pm

      Corey wrote:

      My point is, signing free agent starting pitchers doesn’t work, we’ve seen this on our team for the past few years now. You end up with Pavano’s and Wright’s.

      Signing them does work, you have to pick the right ones. For every Pavano and Wright, there’s a Jimmy Key and David Wells.

    34. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 1:19 pm

      Ok.. If I missed anyone, sorry but Thank you all for your logical points and input here… Some great ideas for me to consider and some points that are without doubt GREAT arguements which are hard to oppose,,,

      So I will ask one last question:

      As some have stated here, front end pitchers are expensive and harder to come by…….

      Without a shut down closer in your bullpen, who protects your investment to secure those wins?…

      The Mets when out and traded for Johan and spent a boat load of money to aquire and sign him… If not for those 10+ blown saves, well Johan gets another CY Young… K-Rod came at a big price. 40 millin is allot of money and Putz is no bargin either..

      Yankees still have Mo and the problems like most will agree on is getting the ball to him.. CC is only signed to a three year deal and hopefully he conisders the full 7 years.. AJ is here for 5 years… That is allot of money locked up… As some have said that we can go out and get someone via trade or FA, do you think that is a costly gamble to consider to protect these investments?..

    35. Corey
      May 28th, 2009 | 1:23 pm

      @ Sicilian Lou:
      the mets prob is they never score runs for johan, and they never play defense behind him

    36. Corey
      May 28th, 2009 | 1:29 pm

      for instance:

      Santana gets 4.91 RS/G
      CC gets 5.96 RS/G
      Joba gets 9.13 RS/G

    37. Sicilian Lou
      May 28th, 2009 | 1:36 pm

      Corey wrote:

      @ Sicilian Lou:
      the mets prob is they never score runs for johan, and they never play defense behind him

      Come on Corey.. Your better than that!!..LOL.. so they should have upgraded their offense?.. LOL.. just breaking your chops…Its true, but the games he did have a lead is what was blown and lost his Cy Young.. Its just another side to the arguement and by no means does it change what you and others have said here.. Believe me, I really think this is the best Yankee board I have ever been on because of the smart and insightful people who post here..

    38. G.I. Joey
      May 28th, 2009 | 4:42 pm

      The Joba question is something I have been struggling with as of late and something I actually spoke to MJ about earlier in the day before having read this thread. With our bullpen appearing to be in disarray, the knee jerk reaction I think for many is to throw Joba in there based on what he did when he came up in 2007 filling that setup role. Assuming that Wang makes a return, advocating Joba to the pen would most likely mean keeping Hughes in the rotation and I think many of us agree that Phil is headed in the right direction, but still has a ways to go. So basically I’m asking myself, would I rather have a question mark looming over our starting rotation or have one looming over our pen? I think I rather have it looming over our pen operating under the belief that good starting pitching is the fundamental building block to a win.

    39. Corey
      May 28th, 2009 | 4:48 pm

      where the hell is marte? lol

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