WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 8/19/09
Posted by Steve L. on August 19th, 2009 · Comments (40)
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Interesting tidbit from Ken Davidoff’s blog, taliing about voting for the MVP:
“I thought Derek Jeter earned a demerit for his non-support of Alex Rodriguez during the trying 2006 season. I spent enough time in that ’06 Yankees clubhouse to believe, with conviction, that Jeter let his personal dislike of A-Rod get in the way of the team’s goals. And yes, I understand those ’06 Yankees won 97 games.”
Interesting.
I think Davidoff’s right…except I don’t think it’s possible for one player’s dislike of another to “get in the way of a team’s goals.” I don’t see how that works. But I agree with the general sentiment of what he’s saying.
I think Davidoff’s right…except I don’t think it’s possible for one player’s dislike of another to “get in the way of a team’s goals.”
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I took that to mean that, maybe, if Jeter had been outspoken enough to defend Alex and tell the fans to lay off on the booing, he would have felt less anxiety to perform at every at bat and, in turn, been booed less and performed better.
We’ll never know for sure. But either way, i’ll never fully understand why his 35 home runs, 121 rbis and .914 ops were poor enough to unmercifully boo the man at every at bat in 2006…that would be a career year for about 75% of the position players in MLB. A truly spoiled and irrational fan base we are, Yankee fans.
YankCrank wrote:
1) I think what you’re saying is probably right although I’m still not sure that it would’ve mattered that much. As Davidoff said, the Yanks won 97 games and their ouster in the ’06 ALDS wasn’t on A-Rod, it was on Mussina serving up an untimely homer in Game 2 and the pitching going south in Games 3 & 4.
2) I couldn’t agree more and have been saying that for years.
Poor Babe Ruth…how did he ever manage to perform all those seasons in New York when Lou Gehrig wasn’t talking to him?
Poor Babe Ruth…how did he ever manage to perform all those seasons in New York when Lou Gehrig wasn’t talking to him?
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Alex clearly performed, as I cited with the above stats. My issue isn’t with Derek Jeter, but with the Yankee fans. Show some class, show some appreciation, at least show some intelligence. The man had a solid 2006, was coming off an MVP season in 2005 and helped the team win 97 games that year…best in the AL. How spoiled and irrational is the fan base to have to boo about anything at that point?
Show some class, show some appreciation, at least show some intelligence. The man had a solid 2006, was coming off an MVP season in 2005 and helped the team win 97 games that year…best in the AL. How spoiled and irrational is the fan base to have to boo about anything at that point?
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Amen.
We’ll never know for sure. But either way, i’ll never fully understand why his 35 home runs, 121 rbis and .914 ops were poor enough to unmercifully boo the man at every at bat in 2006…that would be a career year for about 75% of the position players in MLB. A truly spoiled and irrational fan base we are, Yankee fans.
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IIRC, that was the year where he was a complete flop defensively, and thats why fans started to get on him. Then he started shitting the bed in the clutch, and the boos got louder and it’s been like that ever since. His defense that year was definitly boo worthy.
IIRC, that was the year where he was a complete flop defensively, and thats why fans started to get on him. Then he started shitting the bed in the clutch, and the boos got louder and it’s been like that ever since. His defense that year was definitly boo worthy.
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Yankee fans booed him in the first game of the season. Literally the home opener. It may have gotten worse as the season wore on, and some of it may have been justified w/r/t the poor defense he flashed that year, but fans went into the year with their knives sharpened. The 2006 season was one of the most atrocious and unjust displays of fan behavior I’ve ever seen.
Yankees fans booed A-Rod in 2006 because he batted .237 in 89 “Late and close” PA that year – with 22 whiffs in those 89 PA.
Striking out 1 out of every four times in those visable and memorable spots, and only getting a hit in 24% of those situations, while getting paid a gazillion dollars, will piss a fan-base off pretty good. Not classy? Dunno. Savvy? Perhaps.
Also, keep in mind, this was coming off the post-season where A-Rod “played like a dog” (in his words). And, that was the post-season that was supposed to help ease the pain of the 2004 post-season…but, it didn’t happen.
In 2006, there was nothing that Derek Jeter could do to change any of this. What was Jeter supposed to say “Com’on guys. Don’t boo Alex. He’s really, really, trying.”? Yeah, that would have worked…not! Jeter is smart enough to know that he cannot tell the fans how to express their feelings.
And, let’s not forget, in 2007, in his opt out year, A-Rod played like it was man against boys. And, the fans up in the Bronx held a love in for Alex, every game.
Play well – and the fans will love you. Choke big time in the clutch – and, after a while, you will get booed. That’s just the way it is in Yankeeland. If a player can’t handle it, he’s playing for the wrong team. Derek Jeter is not part of any of this…
didn’t he throw the first ball that got hit to him into the stands in 2006? i thought thats why they booed him durign the 1st game
Corey wrote:
He dropped a pop-up in foul territory.
No matter what he did, the season was still only a few hours old. As I said, fans came into 2006 with their knives sharpened and ready for him. Ridiculous and petty.
Derek Jeter is not part of any of this…
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Not true. Derek Jeter isn’t a part of it w/r/t any other player. Derek Jeter is absolutely a part of it when it relates to A-Rod.
Steve Lombardi wrote:
It’s not just Yankeeland. It’s the nature of “fandom” to be fickle. Whichever way the wind blows. Player does well, he gets cheered, player doesn’t do well, he gets booed.
Mr. Ortiz is learning this lesson, and I’m surprised that he’s surprised that people turned on him when he wasn’t doing well.
Random Question: When October comes around and its late in a close game. Yanks have RISP and Cano is up to bat. Do you pinch hit him there? I’m only like 5 percent kidding with this one. It seems he is trying to make an out in those situations. I know he had a walk off the other day but his BA with RISP is like .205. Thoughts?
The thing that irked me most about 2006 was that people claimed that Rodriguez couldn’t handle the “pressure” of playing in NY. Apparently, people had forgotten that he was the defending AL MVP in 2005. An MVP that he won for the Yanks, playing in NY.
Raf wrote:
Bingo
Derek Jeter is not part of any of this…
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Derek is certainly a part of this. How about we compare last year.
-In 2008, Derek Jeter puts up the worst numbers of his career. Career lows in OPS, RBI, SB and close to career lows in HR and RS.
-Alex hit over .300, hit 35 HR and had an OPS of .965. Not career numbers, but like I said early…those numbers are a career year for most position players in baseball.
So which one of those players was being booed every at bat not resulting in a hit or walk for the last two months? A-Rod was. Do numbers support that action? No, what does support it is exactly what MJ said…Yankee fans go into each year with their knives sharpened for A-Rod. It’s irrational and ridiculous.
MJ wrote:
Esquire Magazine, March 2001:
“Jeter’s been blessed with great talent around him. He’s never had to lead. He can just go and play and have fun. And he hits second—that’s totally different than third and fourth in a lineup. You go into New York, you wanna stop Bernie and O’Neill. You never say, Don’t let Derek beat you. He’s never your concern.”
- Alex Rodriguez.
…he’s never your concern…
in A-Rod’s own words, I might add.
YankCrank wrote:
When A-Rod wins a World Series MVP and/or has a “Flip Play” on his resume, he’ll get a buddy pass on the bad times too.
clintfsu813 wrote:
If it’s late and close, with Hairston on the team, I’d consider PHing him for Cano against a tough LHP.
Just a tack on to the Jeter, A-Rod, fans booing thing…
read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/26/sports/sports-of-the-times-even-by-bronx-standards-booing-jeter-is-bad-form.html
@ Steve Lombardi:
if it’s late and close, in october, cano is in the game already and hairston isn’t.
To clintfsu813′s question, I wouldn’t unless it was an NL park. Who do you trust off the bench to come up with that hit in a big spot that isn’t in the game already? If it’s an NL game and Matsui is on the bench I would consider it. Otherwise, I’d take my chances with Cano vs. Hinske/Hairston/Gardner/Molina/Pena/whomever, regardless of how he did in the regular season.
o wait i read that wrong…you’d actaully consider putting hairston in there instead of Cano?
Steve Lombardi wrote:
And he was right. Remember how good Bernie was in his prime? A switch-hitting cleanup hitter who played CF? Remember how good O’Neill was?
People fear middle of the lineup hitters. That’s common sense. Playing in Seattle it was don’t let Rodriguez/Griffey/Edgar beat you. Boston, Manny or Ortiz. San Francisco, it was Bonds/Clark/Williams. San Diego, it was Gwynn. Minnesota, Puckett. Before Jeter, it was Mattingly. So on and so forth.
The only reason the comments became such a big deal was because someone made a mountain out of a molehill.
Corey wrote:
I’m saying, in an October game, if it’s late, and it’s a huge AB with RISP, and Cano is due up, I would CONSIDER pinch hitting with Hairston – depending on the pitcher and the match-ups, etc.
When A-Rod wins a World Series MVP and/or has a “Flip Play” on his resume, he’ll get a buddy pass on the bad times too.
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I’m sorry, how silly of me to think that two MVPs and 229 HRs in only five years was a worthless accomplishment in the eyes of Yankee fans. He’s truly worth booing when only hitting less than 40 home runs and driving in less than 140 runs each year.
YankCrank wrote:
For many, it’s the “Mr. May” thing – there’s a difference between excelling in October and during the regular season. Fair? Maybe not. Smart? Dunno…but, it’s the way it is.
Also, remember, at the time he was being booed in 2006, it was one MVP, not two. And, again, it was coming off a sub-par 2004, a disaster ’04 ALCS, a MVP season in ’05, followed by a turd ’05 ALDS. So, that MVP in ’05 was offset by three other bad things, I suspect, in the eyes of many…
MJ wrote:
Does MJ stand for Mangle Jeter? Murder Jeter? Mistreat Jeter? enough already with the anti-Jeter garbage. We get it ,you don’t like the Golden Boy…did he try to steal your grilfriend or something!??! Look St Derek is not beyond reproach BUT he’s a sacred cow and Afraud sure ain’t. BTW, MJ Jeter is having such a shitty season, he nevers gets a clutch hit, flies out every at bat ….NOT! Yeah, Golden Boy Jeter could have stuck up for Aroid BUT when Arod slagged him in Esquire he started all that garbage. And quite frankly, St DJ is the King here and Arod came here knowing that. Look, Jeter didn’t help Arod in 2006 BUT Aroid is a grown boy BTW who sees 3 shrinks! I really don’t feel sorry for him…he can sod off with his off the field garbage too.
@ SL and Crank, I get both of your points. The fans were definitely going overboard with Aroid BUT he dug his own antics off the field. Was Arod compared to other players like Big Flappi or Manram during Arod’s time with the Yankees. Steve Phillips claimed he was in 2007, BUT most baseball fans would have wanted Flappi OR Manram. Look, Arod has a work ethic like no other in baseball(cept for Doc Halladay). That is a very good thing. He wasn’t perceived as the most clutch hitter BUT his production was outta sight.
Anyway, from what people like Kay are claiming everybody gets along EVEN Aroid, the basket case. So what’s done is done. It’s great to talk about who said what in 2000 and who got payback in 2006, BUT they are now getting along. I kinda like that idea as cynical as I bloody am. The important thing will be to see if Arod falters in the post season again, that will be the most interesting thing of all. Whatever happened with the Red Sox and Tigers in the past playoffs will be irrelevant. Now is Arod’s time to shut up his critics and come through…..it’s time for him to put that 300 mill where his mouth is.
Butchie, I have no idea what you’re talking about but, since you asked, MJ stands for my first and middle names. I don’t care to mangle, murder or mistreat Jeter.
MJ wrote:
MJ, I don’t understand what you are saying either! Holy shit, that is such a coincidence. Let me, break it down to one simple fact:your disdain of Derek Jeter. Your Jeter hatred is so off base. It’s one thing if St Derek sucked and was done on the field BUT you go and on with your anti-Jeter bias. It’s a bit much. It’s beyond a bit much, you have a very skewed perspective on Jeter that is so ludicrous,it’s silly. If you didn’t effing notice,he’s still a damn good player! You have some irrational dislike of him, that makes very little sense.If you don’t understand that one, mate I’ll send you a bloody reading comprehension book.
If you don’t understand that one, mate I’ll send you a bloody reading comprehension book.
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Feel free to send it along. Ask Steve for my address.
BUT you go and on with your anti-Jeter bias. It’s a bit much. It’s beyond a bit much, you have a very skewed perspective on Jeter that is so ludicrous,it’s silly.
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Just to be fair butch, and i’m not trying to be mean here, but you have a slight bias against some Yankee players too. Many times you’ve been here talking negatively against Alex, Swish, AJ etc.
Hey, we’re all guilty of it, right? I’m not calling you out, but let’s be fair. As much as MJ may talk negatively about Derek, you’ve done the same with a number of players. We all have, including me, and even Steve can agree.
As much as MJ may talk negatively about Derek
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I admit I’ve utterly destroyed Joba and Nady on this site in recent months. I don’t think I’ve trashed Jeter. IMHO, I think I’ve only said the following about Jeter:
1. I hope the Yanks don’t pull a nostalgia signing in 2010 because it’s not in the best interests of the team;
2. I don’t think Jeter’s so-called leadership attributes are as great as they’re purported to be;
3. I find it unfair that anything Jeter does is labeled as “heroic” but anything A-Rod does is labeled “stat-padding” or something equally pejorative and/or insulting; and
4. I don’t find myself particularly enamored of Jeter’s cold, distant personality.
I wouldn’t think all that is negative talk per se but merely a dissenting or contrarian opinion on a guy that 99% of NYY fans blindly adore. I suppose it appears more negative than it is precicely because he’s so blindly adored.
Anyway, it hardly matters and I don’t think I have to justify my position. I admit that I have no great sentimentality for Jeter the way I do for O’Neill or Rivera. If that comes across as negative then I guess it is what it is.
@ YankCrank:
PS – My post directly above was not meant to be argumentative towards you, merely a clarification of what I believe to be my record of comments regarding Jeter. No, I don’t get all warm-and-fuzzy when I think about him, but I don’t hate him.
And thanks for your support, by the way. Butchie forgets himself sometimes…
YankCrank wrote:
Crank ,there’s a major difference. I don’t skewer Alex, Swish, AJ everytime out just for the sake of it. It’s ultimately about results.On Arod, I’ve said that he has a work ethic that is non pareil. In that respect,he is an exemplar to younger players on the team. And he is very productive,even thought he is a nutcase off the field..I became very annoyed with Arod where his off the field antics became just ridiculous.Reread my posts on Swisher. A good clubhouse guy, hits well BUT is feast and famine defensively in the outfield. With AJ, I have been tough with him BUT he has been really good to the team and an asset to it so far! He’s different than he was in Toronto and he is arguably the ace if not their best pitcher this year. That sounds fair and balanced,no? I tell it like it is. Case in point, I can’t stand AJ BUT I applaud his performance and the fact that he has fit in wonderfully. He actually has surprised me, especially with his cream pies. And to be fair , I’ve given Cash Man compliments when he’s done something right Once again, my enmity stems from the results and not some personal animus.
In the case of MJ and Jeter , there seems to be an element of how petty Jeter is etc so on vs Arod. That consistent negative stance towards Jeter is not merited. I’ve never seen ANYTHING positive about him from MJ! At least on the players I’ve criticized, I’ve judged them according to their excellent or bad play(and in the case of Arod his idiocy of being the anti-Jeter off the field) Yes, I’ve said negative things about “St” Jeter BUT I know what he has accomplished with this team and how well he goes about his business off the field. Arod is a complete mess vs Jeter in that respect. In essence, MJ’s spin is totally off on who Jeter is. It’s almost like he’s denigrating Derek jeter from the Twilight Zone NOT the Yankees. My point of contention is not that I’m a Jeter lover BUT MJ aka Maim Jeter looks to get at the Golden Boy at any chance. I’m sorry to say, that with what he’s accomplished with this team (as being such a winner) MJ has gone a bit too far. But as MJ admitted he seems more negative because he’s so adored. But that adoration of his play and the way he goes about his business is there for a reason. Yes, I derisively refer to him as St Derek and Golden Boy for this perception BUT Jeter is part of the solution NOT part of the problem. He’s also having a great season this year and hopefully along with Swisher sweet, Alex and AJ they will win it all this year.
Ultimately, my point is that at least be even handed in your criticism. It’s as if Jeter sucked and everything thing he does is circumspect. I’m the exact opposite,Crank. I’ve ripped certain players BUT when they do the job, I give them credit. Except for Kei Igawa….that is the only exception!
I definitely agree that Jeter is not the leader he has been made out to be, but I also think that such “skills” are overrated. That said, and it’s a flaw in A-Rod, but A-Rod is the one person on the team that would’ve responded favorably to Jeter throwing him a bone by sticking up for him in 2006- just like he stuck up for Giambi through his steroid thing.
Yes, A-Rod’s comments were tacky and not the things a friend should say about another friend. But Jeter could’ve been the bigger person and moved on, and instead he seemingly held a grudge for years. Would it have helped A-Rod’s performance in the playoffs that year? I tend to doubt it, but it couldn’t have hurt.
And let me say this: I think it says a lot about Jeter when he was errantly called out at third earlier this season and the crew chief initially took Jeter’s side, based on the way Jeter has handled himself over his career. By and large, Jeter is a class act and we’re lucky to have watched him all of these years.
JeremyM wrote:
Good call, Jeremy. One can say many things about Jeter and classy is one of those things. It’s one thing to slag on Jeter if he was a camera loving media whore, who didn’t give a shit about the fans and went about his business the wrong way… but the fact is that he is a model citizen. I agree that we have been lucky to have seen such a great player for so many years.
Good call on the Arod/Jeter situation as well. I give you a lot of credit for being fair and balanced on that matter.
BUT MJ aka Maim Jeter
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You know you’ve arrived as a celebrity or a person of interest when Butchie gives you one of his trademarked nicknames. Butch, thanks for the compliment. AJ Burnit, Ca$h Man, Aroid, Big Flappi and I will wear the nicknames as a badge of honor.