• WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 8/25/09

    Posted by on August 25th, 2009 · Comments (26)

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    Comments on WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 8/25/09

    1. YankCrank
      August 25th, 2009 | 9:05 am

      I’ll kick start something today:

      So, news is that Johan Santana may need elbow surgery and will miss the rest of the year. I know nothing in baseball is completely relative, but imagine if we had taken the road to trade Hughes, Melky and whatever others to acquire Johan before 2008.

      We’d have no Melky, who has made a very good contribution this year and with Gardner hurt, idk who our CF would be right now. Our bullpen would be a mess without Phil, and then we’d have to assume that one of CC/Burnett/Tex wouldn’t be on this team because a good $20+ million a year would already be going to Santana and not one of them (we know the Yanks have money, but we also know they are not willing to bring the payroll up to $230 million, which is what it would have taken to trade for Johan, pay him and still sign all of CC/Tex/Burnett). Idk which one it would be, but either way…we’d be without our “ace” in Johan for the rest of the year, Wang is gone, Kennedy had surgery, so where would the Yankees be right now? Who knows where we’d be in the division race without Melk and Phil.

      Johan has another four years and around $100 million left in a Mets uniform. At this point, is anybody still up in arms about Cashman not pulling the trigger on Santana as he heads for elbow surgery in a year where he makes $20 million?

    2. Corey
      August 25th, 2009 | 9:12 am

      lol it could just be the Mets too..seems like most players outside of Piazza had their best years either before or after getting into a Met uniform.

    3. clintfsu813
      August 25th, 2009 | 9:43 am

      At this point, is anybody still up in arms about Cashman not pulling the trigger on Santana as he heads for elbow surgery in a year where he makes $20 million?

      Wasnt then…still not now. Great movie Cashy.

    4. MJ
      August 25th, 2009 | 9:47 am

      YankCrank wrote:

      At this point, is anybody still up in arms about Cashman not pulling the trigger on Santana as he heads for elbow surgery in a year where he makes $20 million?

      I was literally JUST thinking about that over breakfast. I was against the trade at the time, felt vindicated once the Yanks signed Sabathia to roughly the same contract and got to keep their prospects, and now I feel even more strongly that the Yanks took the better route. At the time the Twins were shopping Santana there were already concerns about his health, given his “down” (for him) second half of the ’07 season and the fact that he wasn’t as sharp with his breaking stuff.

      Obviously, as you pointed out, everything isn’t relative in the exact same way, but the fact remains that the Yanks were able to acquire their #1 starter without costing the team its best and most important prospects. Cashman definitely made the right call.

    5. YankCrank
      August 25th, 2009 | 12:15 pm

      Obviously, as you pointed out, everything isn’t relative in the exact same way, but the fact remains that the Yanks were able to acquire their #1 starter without costing the team its best and most important prospects. Cashman definitely made the right call.
      —-

      Agreed, and I was also not a big believer in that deal either. It’s funny in Yankeeland sometimes…Cash signs a guy like Marte and everybody hears about how poor a deal it was to make every time the Yankees need to go to the pen. But he makes a good call on a deal like this, which could have really set back our organizational depth, flexibility and payroll for at least one year, maybe more…and it’s dead silent.

    6. YankCrank
      August 25th, 2009 | 12:20 pm

      It would just be nice for one of those in the anti-Cashman group who slam his every move to say, “You know what, maybe I was wrong when I was slamming this guy for not trading our young guys for Santana. Our team wouldn’t be the same, or as good without a productive Hughes and Melky and with a hurt, expensive and declining Santana. He’s clearly not the best GM in all of baseball, but this was a good non-move for the time being.”

      Sherman brought up a good point as well. I guess we’ll never know what the package would have been to acquire Santana, but it was rumored to be a Hughes, Kennedy, Melky and Marquez deal. Hughes and Melky have been good, and Marquez flipped us Swisher. I think it’s safe to say as Yankee fans we’re much happier Santana went to the Mets.

    7. MJ
      August 25th, 2009 | 12:46 pm

      YankCrank wrote:

      He’s clearly not the best GM in all of baseball, but this was a good non-move for the time being…Hughes and Melky have been good, and Marquez flipped us Swisher.

      I agree that Cashman is not the best GM in baseball. In fact, I’ve begun to see his flaws more clearly this year, especially with regards to how the draft went. Having said that, I agree 100% that the Cash-bashers have never given a “mea culpa” on his passing on the Santana trade. The story is still unwritten as to how the Sabathia move plays out — so far so good in my book, however — but it’s pretty clear to me that the Yanks are better off with Sabathia and the kids than they would’ve been with just Santana.

      I never even thought about the Swish/Marquez connection part of the Santana trade. Great point. As good a year as Bobby Abreu is having for Anaheim, the Yanks have definitely not missed a beat with Swisher out there in RF. As much as I loved Bobby in NY (and I feel sometimes like I was the only one), I love Swisher even more.

    8. YankCrank
      August 25th, 2009 | 1:28 pm

      Heyman is tweeting Wagner will indeed be going to Boston. Any thoughts?

      Also, MJ, I agree with just about everything you said.

      Sabathia+Hughes+Melky+Swisher > Santana and his cranky left elbow

    9. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      August 25th, 2009 | 1:48 pm

      YC,
      my thought is that there is potential for this to have a big impact in the post-season. In an ALCS with the Yankees having home field, Wagner could be a major weapon in the late innings to offset the fence-swinging lefties in the Yankee lineup, as well as turning guys like Teixeira and Posada around to hit from the other side.

      Granted he’s only made two appearances and its possible that he’s come back too soon and could go down again or that his fastball at 94-96 will be more hittable than it was at 99. On the other hand, I think a lefty, particularly matched up against lefties, can get away with losing some speed on the fastball.

      - Dan

    10. Raf
      August 25th, 2009 | 2:34 pm

      YankCrank wrote:

      Heyman is tweeting Wagner will indeed be going to Boston. Any thoughts?

      I think it’s a good move. When I heard reports that Wagner wasn’t going to waive his NTC, I thought he was out of his mind. He’s not going to get saves in NY, if he’s going to set up or be a LOOGY, he may as well do it on a pennant contending team.

      Good move for the Sox, it shortens the game that much more, and it gives them another option in the pen along with Paps and Bard.

    11. Raf
      August 25th, 2009 | 2:38 pm

      It’s reported on MLB.com that Wagner’s a Red Sox…

    12. MJ
      August 25th, 2009 | 2:41 pm

      Wagner’s pitched 2 innings in 2 years. Furthermore, he taught Armando and Brad Lidge everything they know about shitting it in the postseason. I’m happy he’s in Boston. Let him and his obnoxious personality infect that lousy team for the next 6 weeks.

    13. YankCrank
      August 25th, 2009 | 2:48 pm

      Wagner’s pitched 2 innings in 2 years. Furthermore, he taught Armando and Brad Lidge everything they know about shitting it in the postseason. I’m happy he’s in Boston. Let him and his obnoxious personality infect that lousy team for the next 6 weeks.
      ——

      That was exactly my thought. Wagner not only finds a way to blow big games, but has been owned by Yankee hitters. I would love, LOVE for him to come into a big spot in Yankee Stadium over Okajima or Bard.

      However, it will be interesting to hear Enter Sandman at Fenway Park for the first time.

    14. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      August 25th, 2009 | 2:53 pm

      MJ wrote:

      Wagner’s pitched 2 innings in 2 years.

      Try again. 45 appearances, 27 saves in 2008 with a .894 WHIP. Last appearance of the season August 2nd.

      You might sing a different tune if he K’s Matsui and Cano in the eighth inning of Game 7 of the ALCS. Like Smoltz, he’s been a great pitcher whenever he has been healthy enough to pitch. Unlike Smoltz, he won’t be called on to go through a lineup 3 times with diminished stuff.

      - Dan

    15. G.I. Joey
      August 25th, 2009 | 3:04 pm

      OnceIWasAYankeeFan wrote:

      MJ wrote:
      Wagner’s pitched 2 innings in 2 years.
      Try again. 45 appearances, 27 saves in 2008 with a .894 WHIP. Last appearance of the season August 2nd.
      You might sing a different tune if he K’s Matsui and Cano in the eighth inning of Game 7 of the ALCS. Like Smoltz, he’s been a great pitcher whenever he has been healthy enough to pitch. Unlike Smoltz, he won’t be called on to go through a lineup 3 times with diminished stuff.
      - Dan

      You need actually get into the playoffs in order to get to the ALCS right? Just checking.

    16. Raf
      August 25th, 2009 | 3:10 pm

      Santana’s going to have surgery, he’s done for the season… Sheesh.

    17. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      August 25th, 2009 | 3:19 pm

      @ G.I. Joey:
      With Wakefield returning Wednesday, Dice-K early in September, the bats alive with V-Mart in the lineup (and Varitek out of it with some regularity), and now Wagner added to the bullpen, I think we’ve got a pretty good shot at managing to make the wild card.

      And since most Yankee fans seem to think that we’ll always have the Angels number, a date in the ALCS doesn’t seem too hard to imagine. Then again, the Yankees will face Verlander twice with one starter who has an awful post-season record and another who has never pitched in the post-season ever.

      So, neither of us should book our LCS tickets quite yet.

    18. Corey
      August 25th, 2009 | 3:31 pm

      OnceIWasAYankeeFan wrote:

      So, neither of us should book our LCS tickets quite yet.

      with the rangers and rays, u shoudln’t punch your LDS ticket yet either ;)

    19. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      August 25th, 2009 | 3:42 pm

      Perhaps not but as far as the Yankees having Wagner’s number, its funny how we remember the blown saves and chalk up the saves converted to “what’s supposed to happen anyway”.

      Yankee slash against Wagner:
      .233/.313/.233 for a frightening OPS of .546
      4.25 SO to walk ratio
      Only disconcerting stat I can find is .385 BABIP but on the other hand, ZERO extra base hits, ever, by a Yankee off of Wagner.

      Actually that makes perfect sense when you consider a .233 BAA and a SLG of .233 – ten hits allowed, all singles.

    20. YankCrank
      August 25th, 2009 | 3:49 pm

      You might sing a different tune if he K’s Matsui and Cano in the eighth inning of Game 7 of the ALCS.
      ——-

      If it were the 8th inning of the ALCS, with Matsui and Cano hitting and you gave me a choice to have to face Okajima, Bard, Papelbon for an extended stretch or Wagner…i’d most likely do back flips off the back of my car and risk landing on my neck to get Wagner in there.

      Look, it’s a win/win move for the Sox. If he’s dirty, you add another good arm to the pen. If he sucks or gets hurt, you can get two draft picks out of it next year. Either way it helps. But being a Yankee fan, and seeing Wagner get touched up continually by Yankee bats, it’s not that scary.

    21. bfriley76
      August 25th, 2009 | 3:56 pm

      OnceIWasAYankeeFan wrote:

      Perhaps not but as far as the Yankees having Wagner’s number, its funny how we remember the blown saves and chalk up the saves converted to “what’s supposed to happen anyway”.
      Yankee slash against Wagner:
      .233/.313/.233 for a frightening OPS of .546
      4.25 SO to walk ratio
      Only disconcerting stat I can find is .385 BABIP but on the other hand, ZERO extra base hits, ever, by a Yankee off of Wagner.
      Actually that makes perfect sense when you consider a .233 BAA and a SLG of .233 – ten hits allowed, all singles.

      With all due respect, assuming a 38 year old pitcher will perform to those numbers less than a year after TJ surgery is quite a leap. Yes…he’s looked good in the 2 innings he’s pitched, but that’s two innings. Nevermind the fact that his agent has come out and said that he really should only be pitching every third day at this point in his rehab. Does that make him THAT valuable in a 7 game series?

    22. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      August 25th, 2009 | 4:01 pm

      YC,
      he does not “get touched up continually by Yankee bats” by any possible stretch of the imagination. Look at his splits against the Yankees:

      http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?n1=wagnebi02&year=Career&t=p#oppon

      He’s never allowed an extra base hit to them. He’s allowed an OPS of .545. He strikes out over four for every walk. How have the Yankee bats touched him up? Way back in 2006, they OPS’d over .700, despite a still sickly SLG, through a few extra walks. Wasn’t it 2006 that had that horrific Wagner blow up of a Met win, where he walked the ballpark or something?

      One singular game does not remotely mean that the Yankees “touch up” Wagner at all. Again, zero extra base hits. .233 BA. 4-1 strikeout to walk ratio. SLG equal to BA, because, for the third time, NO XBH ever allowed to a Yankee hitter in his career.

      And last but not least, there is no way you’d do back flips off the car to have your lefties facing a lefty fireballer. That’s insane.

    23. OnceIWasAYankeeFan
      August 25th, 2009 | 4:08 pm

      @ bfriley76:
      I believe its being reported that he might pitch two out of three days, not once every three days. But with scheduled rest days in a seven game series, if Wagner pitches three times and the Red Sox win each of them, and win just one more, that’s not worth it? For a team that only has Okajima as a lefty in the pen, a hard throwing lefty who can safely be left in to face a Matsui, a Posada forced to hit righty, and a Cano (or force Melky to hit from the right side) – there is a lot of potential value there, especially in Yankee Stadium.

      Its absolutely true Wagner might not pitch to his prior level. But using his bullets carefully, this can still be a game-changer. Not to mention having Wagner as a weapon against Abreu in the ALDS (if they get there).

    24. bfriley76
      August 25th, 2009 | 4:18 pm

      @ OnceIWasAYankeeFan:

      http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4421443

      From before he approved the trade:

      Besides contract issues, another major reason Billy Wagner is declining a move to the Red Sox is because the Mets reliever is only supposed to pitch once every three days at this point in his rehab, Wagner’s agent told 1050 ESPN New York’s Andrew Marchand.

      Regardless, I’d still be skeptical placing huge expectations on a guy less than a year removed from Tommy John Surgery.

    25. Corey
      August 25th, 2009 | 4:52 pm

      @ OnceIWasAYankeeFan:
      fwiw: matsui, melky, posada and cano have hit just as well, if not better vs. lefties than they do righties this year

    26. YankCrank
      August 25th, 2009 | 7:47 pm

      OneWas is actually right, i’d be terrible at backflips.

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