• WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 8/28/09

    Posted by on August 28th, 2009 · Comments (16)

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    Comments on WasWatching.com Water Cooler Talk 8/28/09

    1. YankCrank
      August 28th, 2009 | 9:07 am

      This may be fun, considering how critical most WW’s are about Brian Cashman.

      During Brian Cashman’s tenure, what do you think is the worst move he’s made as GM of the Yankees? Don’t forget to think about how that particular move may have contributed to a disappointing ending to a Yankee season, or underproduction, injury, etc.

      This should be fun.

    2. MJ
      August 28th, 2009 | 9:20 am

      Worst move: Carl Pavano. Indefensible signing. A career-mediocrity as a pitcher with a long list of injury issues coming off a career year. Cashman paid “on spec” for a guy that was never reliable to begin with and proved his past history correct.

      Honorable mention: Kei Igawa. The scouting reports had him as a back-end starter so I don’t have an issue with the move to find rotation talent beyond our borders. But it’s pretty hard to imagine that it should cost roughly $8M/year to sign a back-end starter, even if he comes from the Japanese professional leagues. That he hasn’t even been able to pitch in the majors at all makes this move look even worse. A tick below league average but at least able to put in 150 IP a year would simply be overpaying for a marginal commodity. A Triple-A pitcher earning that kind of wage? Colossal failure.

    3. Corey
      August 28th, 2009 | 9:41 am

      it’s so hard to top those 2 lol…so, while i agree they are worse, i’ll go a different route:

      Jason Giambi. After the 2001 season, they signed Jason to be their first baseman for the better part of a decade. While offensively, on the whole, he didn’t perform poorly..defensively is where he killed the Yanks. And not just the fact that he was a poor defender, either. He was signed to be the primary first basemen, yet in the 7 years that Jason had played in pinstripes, he only appeared at 1st more than 100 games in a season 1 time, that was in 2008 where he played 1st in 113 (112 started) games. The other 6 seasons, he averaged just 65 games at first. The problem that this created, however, was that now the Yankees needed someone to man first while Giambi DHed. This created a black hole in the offense for many seasons as the Yankees couldn’t find the right man for the job. Not, until this year, have we had a real first basemen since the days of Tino. So we had tons of money tied to a first basemen that never played first, and as a consequence of not playing first the overall lineup suffered because we would have filler picking up the slack.

      This doesn’t usually get much attention during Cashman bashing sessions due probably to that fact that the yanks still had one of the best offenses in the league and made the playoffs during Giambi’s tenure. You never know though, if the Yanks could have better utilized the DH and 1B positions, maybe we would be going for our 28th championship this year.

    4. butchie22
      August 28th, 2009 | 9:43 am

      @ MJ, a lot of teams wanted Pavano BTW. As much as I crucify Cash Man, the Red Sox, Mariners and a bunch of others coveted him . The Red Sox even offered him more money and he came here! Yes, he was the American Idle and he is a weak, gutless, mum’s boy BUT he isn’t the worst.

      Igawa is hands down the worst. At least Pavano, won a few games for the Yanks! This guy turned out to be so bad, they are hiding him in the minors. Cash Man had the choice of Lilly(who had pitched for the Yanks before and in the AL East for the Jays) and the Sunglass Man from the Land of the Rising Sun. Wow, whatta a bad miscalculation. And this was the Yank’s reaction to Dicey-K going to the Red Sox. I wonder if scouts noticed that annoyingly confused look on his face when he pitched,too! Hey, look at the bright side of things, he is the all time wins leader @ the SWB franchise………

    5. bfriley76
      August 28th, 2009 | 9:55 am

      @ Corey:
      While his defense might have hurt the Yankees on plenty of occasions, I think putting Giambi as one of his worst signings is a bit of a stretch. Yes, defensively, he was pretty horrible (especially compared to the Yankee 1B who immediately preceded and followed him), and he brought drama with the steroids and the injuries. But even with all of that, and the HORRIBLE 2004 season, he still had a OPS of .925 as a Yankee. That’s pretty impressive.

      And Giambi was coming off of an MVP and MVP-runner up season. Those two years he had an OPS of 1.123 (OPS+ 187) and 1.137 (OPS+ 198). He wasn’t a flash in the pan guy like Pavano or a reactionary move like Igawa.

    6. Corey
      August 28th, 2009 | 9:57 am

      @ bfriley76:
      ya but he sucked up 2 offensive positions, so essentially u gotta add his production with the 1st basemens and avg…i’m sure if you did that, it wouldn’t be as impressive.

    7. MJ
      August 28th, 2009 | 10:04 am

      butchie22 wrote:

      @ MJ, a lot of teams wanted Pavano BTW. As much as I crucify Cash Man, the Red Sox, Mariners and a bunch of others coveted him . The Red Sox even offered him more money and he came here! Yes, he was the American Idle and he is a weak, gutless, mum’s boy BUT he isn’t the worst.

      I’ve never understood this argument. The fact that other teams wanted him only highlights their stupidity and doesn’t exonerate Cashman’s. If anything, signing someone just because he’s desired by others — and not on his own merits — is the type of lemming/group-think that typifies stupidity. Thinking outside the box and sometimes being a contrarian is what separates the dopes from the smart guys.

      In the case of Cashman signing Pavano, it was a mistake no matter what, even if every other team wanted to sign that same mistake.

    8. ken
      August 28th, 2009 | 1:07 pm

      One problem with this analysis is from the outside, we don’t really know who were Cashman’s signings. The Boss used to dictate certain signings and then there was the Tampa crowd who influenced King George’s mind. Not until 2005-6 offseason did Cash get complete control.

      Having said that, I’d say No-K Igawa. A complete embarrassment. Unlike some of the other players named, there was nothing about this guy to expect that he might have done any better than he did.

    9. YankCrank
      August 28th, 2009 | 1:22 pm

      So, Mike Cameron is out there as he’s cleared waivers. His 3.6 WAR would be quite an upgrade in CF. He’s also a free agent next year…any reason Cash shouldn’t jump on that?

    10. butchie22
      August 28th, 2009 | 1:48 pm

      MJ wrote:

      butchie22 wrote:
      @ MJ, a lot of teams wanted Pavano BTW. As much as I crucify Cash Man, the Red Sox, Mariners and a bunch of others coveted him . The Red Sox even offered him more money and he came here! Yes, he was the American Idle and he is a weak, gutless, mum’s boy BUT he isn’t the worst.
      I’ve never understood this argument. The fact that other teams wanted him only highlights their stupidity and doesn’t exonerate Cashman’s. If anything, signing someone just because he’s desired by others — and not on his own merits — is the type of lemming/group-think that typifies stupidity. Thinking outside the box and sometimes being a contrarian is what separates the dopes from the smart guys.
      In the case of Cashman signing Pavano, it was a mistake no matter what, even if every other team wanted to sign that same mistake.

      MJ, nothing completely ever exonerates Cash Man from his mistakes BUT other teams wanted this player. It wasn’t if Cash Man overpaid for a commodity that no one else wanted. It wasn’t like Burnit where he was bidding against the Braves only. Fact of the matter is, he was not the only GM that was high on Pavano and that doesn’t make him look as bad. Even I, the biggest hater of Brainless Cash Man, cuts him some slack on Pavano. In essence, he doesn’t look as bad as he should because there was a line of teams wanting Pavano’s services. Were they fooled by Pavano’s performance in the playoffs and his career year before a new contract? Hell, yeah BUT CP being perceived as a valuauble pitcher by that many organizations(even the “smart” Red Sox) has shown that Cash Man wasn’t the only one out there who saw that. AS much as I would love to crush Cash Man on this, Igawa is a much better example of his misjudgment and free spending ways……

    11. YankCrank
      August 28th, 2009 | 2:37 pm

      MJ hating on Cashman, Butchie defending Cashman…is this bizaro-WW??

    12. Corey
      August 28th, 2009 | 3:46 pm

      YankCrank wrote:

      MJ hating on Cashman, Butchie defending Cashman…is this bizaro-WW??

      haha

      YankCrank wrote:

      So, Mike Cameron is out there as he’s cleared waivers. His 3.6 WAR would be quite an upgrade in CF. He’s also a free agent next year…any reason Cash shouldn’t jump on that?

      If he did, Cashman should also spring for pads for the outfielders…don’t need cameron colliding with damon or swisher before the playoffs.

    13. MJ
      August 28th, 2009 | 4:21 pm

      @ Corey:
      Hey, I’m not hating on Cashman! The question was “Cashman’s worst move” so I gave Pavano and Igawa as my entries. I think Cashman has done a generally good (but not great) job and I defend him in these parts especially when Steve rips him for the moves that were solid at the time but just didn’t work out for one reason or another.

      I don’t think Cashman and his staff run the draft as well as the Red Sox and I do find that flaw in his resume fairly inexcusable but, on balance, the Yanks are better for having had Cashman. We would be lucky if his replacement does as well, believe me.

    14. MJ
      August 28th, 2009 | 4:22 pm

      @ YankCrank:
      Sorry, that should’ve been to you, not to Corey.

    15. butchie22
      August 28th, 2009 | 5:46 pm

      YankCrank wrote:

      MJ hating on Cashman, Butchie defending Cashman…is this bizaro-WW??

      Very Unbutchlike, I know! It is a Bizarro World moment to say the least BUT like I have said I call ‘em as I see ‘em. And if Cash Man does something good for the team(which is exceedingly rare) I’ll give him credit. If he screws up (which is quite often BTW), I’ll scream bloody hell.

    16. sanair
      August 28th, 2009 | 6:06 pm

      Corey, MJ:

      Steve hasn’t posted a real post for a while. Is he vacation?

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