Jeter & DiMaggio – Who’s Better?
An interesting question came up here yestersday regarding Derek Jeter and Joe DiMaggio – centering on who is the “greater” Yankee (in terms of their career with the team).
I’ve found Jeter and DiMaggio to be very alike – off the field – in terms of how they carry themselves, deal with fans, media, and fellow teammates as well as protect their “image.” But, what about on the field?
Here, it gets a little harder. “Joe D” was a center fielder who played in a home ballpark which was a killer for right-handed batters (such as he). And, DiMaggio missed three years of playing time due to World War II. “Jete” is a shortstop who has played in a more forgiving Yankee Stadium (for right-handed batters such as he). And, Jeter’s career is still unfolding.
Also, there’s the matter of each player’s defensive reputation. Reportedly, DiMaggio never had to dive for a ball in the outfield because his range and knack for tracking flies was so great. Whereas, Jeter’s range at shortstop, most seasons, has brought cause for the expression “Past-a-diving Jeter.” Then again, the Defensive Spectrum says that playing shortstop is more difficult than playing center field. And, we know there have been many failed shortstops who have converted to become pretty solid defensive center fielders. So, maybe a somewhat less than average defensive shortstop and a top-notch defensive center fielder are not as far apart, in terms of value to a team, as it may seem? To be candid, I have no idea. But, if someone wanted to make this point, I would not laugh at it, at first, knowing what little I do know on the subject – and, rather, would defer to see some more study on it before picking a side of the debate.
Moving past off-the-field conduct, clubhouse contributions, and the question of defensive value, we can focus on each player’s offensive statistics.
Thanks to applications like the Complete Baseball Encyclopedia (CBE) and wesites like Baseball-Reference.com (B-R.com) we have stats available that take playing era and ballpark factors and make them all relative – facilitating our comparison of Jeter’s and DiMaggio’s bat.
Joe DiMaggio had 7,671 big league Plate Appearances in his career. And, according to the CBE, he had 708 Runs Created Above Average (RCAA) in those appearances while, according to B-R.com, he posted an adjusted OPS (OPS+) of 155.
Derek Jeter, through yesterday’s game, has 9,703 big league Plate Appearances in his career. And, according to the CBE, he has 379 RCAA in those appearances while, according to B-R.com, he has an OPS+ of 121.
Doesn’t seem close, does it? But, let’s try something else here.
Let’s remember that Joe DiMaggio lost three years to the war. And, let’s remember that Derek Jeter is 35-years old and his career is still unfolding. Can we find two players, who are like “Joe D” and “Jete” that may provide another angle to examine in this debate?
I believe that Johnny Mize and Charlie Gehringer are those two players.
First, let’s look at Johnny Mize compared to Joe DiMaggio, in terms of relative offense:
BATTER PA RCAA OPS+ Johnny Mize 7371 667 158 Joe DiMaggio 7671 708 155
Now, those marks are pretty close. And, the beauty here is that Mize lost three “prime” seasons to the war – just like DiMaggo did during his career. Granted, Mize was a first baseman and DiMaggio, again, was a center fielder. But, it terms of “just the sticks,” you can make a case that Mize’s relative numbers are not that far off from DiMaggio’s relative numbers.
Next, let’s look at Derek Jeter, compared to Charlie Gehringer, through age 35 (with Jeter’s stats through 9/5/09):
BATTER PA RCAA OPS+ Charlie Gehringer 8533 409 127 Derek Jeter 9703 379 121
Now, these stats are not as close as the ones for Mize and DiMaggio. But, they’re somewhat close – and sort of convenient since both Jeter and Gehringer played the middle infield. (For the record, Gehringer would go on to total 10,237 PA in his career with 444 RCAA and an OPS+ of 124.)
Where am I going with this? Here: If I were to ask you which Hall-of-Famer had the better career, Johnny Mize and Charlie Gehringer, what would your answer be?
If you picked Mize, then, in the debate of DiMaggio versus Jeter, you should pick DiMaggio. But, if you picked Gehringer, then perhaps your answer in the DiMaggio/Jeter question should be Derek Jeter?
Yes, it’s the “complier” versus the superstar debate. It’s Pete Rose’s career against Mark McGwire’s career. Or, maybe it’s like Paul Molitor versus Dick Allen? At the end of the day, maybe there’s not a right-or-wrong answer or a clear winner and loser? That’s all I really want to say here…
…meaning…in the question of Derek Jeter and Joe DiMaggio, and who had the “greater” career…maybe the answer is not as slam-dunk as the stat totals suggest?
Interesting points. But somehow I don’t see Michael Kay standing at the mic at Old Timers’s Day circa 2029 and saying…
“Ladies and gentlemen, the Greatest Living Ballplayer, Derek Jeter.”
[...] Steve Lombardi at Was Watching takes a crack at comparing Jeter to another all-time great Yankee – Joe DiMaggio – and [...]
It’s DiMaggio. Not close, really. DiMaggio is still one of the 20 or 25 best players in history. Jeter isn’t.
Jeter’s still a first ballot Hall of Famer though.
Man these Yankees blogs hero worship there players and prospects way too much.
Face it Joe D was better then Jeter will ever be.Mariano was better and more valueable then Jeter in the late 90′s dynasty and Mark Texeria is better then him this year.
Like Brady he is a Hall of famer but he’s a product of he’s great all-time teams.You put Brady and Jeter on crappy teams and there not as immortal as you guys paint them out to be.Jeter is barely on the top 10 Yankees Players of all time..
Tresh Fan wrote:
Know what? Start Jeter’s career in 1936 instead of 1996, let him do all the things that he’s done, starting in ’36 instead of ’96, allow the media, etc., to glorify him the way they did ball players – esp. in NY – during the ’40′s and ’50′s, and, THEN, allow sportswriters and fans to vote in 1969 on the “Greatest Living Player,” and, well, Jeter just might win the vote.
Tresh Fan wrote:
What if Jeter insists that he be called that, like DiMag did…
Raf, Joe D. was voted “Greatest Living Ballplayer” in the century poll in ’69. Yes, he insisted he be called that, but it’s a title he was awarded by others, not a claim he made for himself.
Steve, sorry but I can’t see a leadoff batter or a #2 hitter being even considered for the title of “Greatest Living Ballplayer”—-no, Ty Cobb batted 3rd and 4th nearly all his career. Also if you transport Jeter back to 1936 you’d have to make for a few allownaces (not considering race among them). Namely:
***Derek Jeter stands 6′ 3″, weighs 195-ish lbs, is fleet of foot and has a rifle arm. In other words, he’s a natural born outfielder. Shortstop? Sorry, Jeter has played OF all through highschool and all through semi pro and the minors, just like Joe D.
***Jeter won’t be doing any real upper body conditioning, and not just because weight training is frowned upon (it supposedly makes you “muscle bound”). Most of the “technology” doesn’t exist—and besides Jeter wouldn’t have the disposble cash to invest in it. So deduct, say, 75% of Jeter’s opposite field HRs. If Jeter goes yard it’s going to be from pulling the ball. That being said, I believe it is still possible for Jeter to hit about 15 HRs a year if he makes the adjustments.
***Also, Derek Jeter is currently 35 and has 2,700+ career hits. Let’s change that to Derek Jeter is 35 and has 2,200 career hits. He lost 3 years due to WWII. Not that that matters. 3000 hits won’t be targeted milestone until Stan Musial reaches that plateau a few years hence.
So all told I envision a CF-RF that will finish his career with a .320ish BA, about 200-250 HRs and about 2,700 hits. Aw heck, let’s throw in about 45 career SBs, too. Let me even imagine him as a superlative fielder. But even at that I doubt he wins any vote for “Greatest Living Ballplayer.”
[...] another interesting post from around the Yankees blogosphere, Steve Lombardi from Was Watching compares the careers of Joe DiMaggio and Derek Jeter. It’s an interesting look at the two (one future) Hall of [...]
According to Sean Smith’s WAR database, this is what each player has done:
Player——WAR—WAR/700PA
DiMaggio—-84—–7.6
Gehringer—81—–5.6
Mize———-70—–6.7
Jeter*———69—–4.9
*Jeter’s totals include Sean Smith’s numbers for 1995-2008 and FanGraphs’ numbers for 2009.
Not even remotely close. Imagine how good DiMaggio would look if we credit him for his three years in the war and last year or two in San Francisco.
[...] Was Watching wonders, who was the better “Yankee” Jeter or Joe DiMaggio. [...]
[...] Was Watching wonders, who was the better “Yankee” Jeter or Joe DiMaggio. [...]