Tino Throwing Giambi & Mussina Under The Bus?
Some comments from Tino Martinez on the present and recent former Yankees, via Ian O’Connor -
“They had gotten away from being the Yankees for a little while,” Martinez said Saturday by phone, “but now I think they’re back.”
The Yankees are back in Minnesota with a 2-0 ALDS lead, because their A-Rods, Teixeiras and Jeters of today are as comfortable with the stakes as the Tinos, Bernies, Brosiuses and Jeters of yesterday.
“I still believe this team has more talent on paper than we had when we won those championships,” said Martinez, who first made that concession in spring.
“But the thing I was concerned about was whether they would come together. Would they play together? Would they develop that attitude we had when we were winning in October?
“And I think they’ve answered those questions. You can’t get tested any more than they were [Friday] night. They had to have that game. That was as close to a must-win game as you’ll see, because you can’t let Minnesota go back to their place with momentum and a chance to close out the series.”
The Yankee teams of the recent past?
“Those teams probably would’ve folded in the ninth,” Martinez said. “They would’ve packed it in. And it’s been demoralizing to a former player to see other teams celebrating at our expense the last few years, especially when you know how Jeter and Mariano [Rivera] are feeling.
“But this team never quits. It’s reminiscent of what we did.”
The 2009 Yankees have players working on a $305 million deal (A-Rod), a $189 million deal (Jeter), a $180 million deal (Teixeira) and a $161 million deal (CC Sabathia). A.J. Burnett had to settle for eight-figure crumbs at $82.5 million.
“But once those guys signed the big contracts,” Martinez said, “they put that away and made their whole focus about winning. I don’t think some of the guys they brought in the last few years had that same feeling.
“A lot of guys are just happy to get the money, and then whatever happens on the field happens. Not these guys. You take CC and A.J. and Teixeira, and throw in [Nick] Swisher, and put them with the four guys who were there when I played; that’s a great combination.”
Well, back in May of 2005 and January 2007, I wrote that:
After the Yankees won four rings in five years (from 1996 to 2000), free agent players (or players with the ability to demand a trade) who had great resumes started lining up to come play in New York – because they wanted the money and they wanted a ring. However, many of these players came here (as I wrote back in May 2005) with the expectation that it was “some sort of birthright that you would win the World Series once you were on the Yankees. And, ‘just showing up’ was all they had to do.”
Basically, these players jumped on the bus looking for a free ride to a ring instead of being someone who was going to drive the bus for the team. On the whole, these are the types of players who have joined the Yankees, made almost unfathomable amounts of money in the process, and who had chances to carry the team to a ring (at one time or another) and failed miserably.
So, I sort of see where Tino Martinez is coming from…but, I’m still surprised to see him come out and say it in public…
Jeter said much the same a few yr’s ago…something like “This team’s not the same as the one that played in the late ’90′s”.
It seems that over the past 6 or 7 years Yankees had shifted their emphasis on building a team around a cadre a players who had a mental toughness and a shared sense of committment to a team that could boast a 900+ run offense. And many a Yankees fan has made the switch as well. Just the other day I encountered one who insisted the Yanks should re-sign Matsui because “we need his bat in the line-up.” Interesting.
Tresh Fan wrote:
It’s a lot easier to scout OPS than fortitude…at least for the current Yankees GM.
The trend described here started with the Giambi signing. Until then it was a mix of youth, veterans but all team first guys. IMO, Giambi started an era of The Boss collecting big names like trophies on a mantle. Giambi, Brown, Johnson, etc. These are me-first guys who were happy to get the big bucks from King George.
During this time, BOS and others built teams smartly. Not giving blank checks to the biggest stars but still willing to pay for the right player who fit the team (rather than forcing the team to fit the new star player.)
Thankfully, we are getting back to building smart and yes, Cash deserves credit for this.
It wasn’t Cashman who spent a half-billion $ on CC, AJ and Tex this winter?
Here’s my problem with Tino’s comment. If, as he says, “Those teams probably would’ve folded in the ninth,” then doesn’t the team’s leadership and core players bear a little responsibility for that? Or are the four-rings guys only responsible for the good times?
I missed the part where Tino said anything about Mussina or Giambi?
Steve Lombardi wrote:
You mean like Randy Johnson, who collapsed in the 2005 ALDS. Oh, wait; he and Schilling just carried the D’backs past the Yanks in 2001. Oh, wait the Boss pushed for that one. Oh, no, you must mean Gary Sheffield. Oh, wait, he won a title in 1997 with the Marlins. Oh, wait, that was a Steinbrenner get.
Maybe you mean Chien-Ming Wang who collapsed in 2005 and again in 2007. Oh, wait, that was an international scouting signing. Or perhaps Joba, who was plagues by midges. A 1st round draft pick.
Or perhaps you mean Posada, who was terrible in 2007.
Or maybe Jeter, who did likewise.
No, wait, Cashman didn’t draft those guys…
Maybe you mean Jon Lieber, a Cashman FA signing who did well in 2004.
Or possibly Abreu, who Cashman traded for, and he did OK in his 2 postseasons with the team.
Ah, you’re talking about Igawa, Pavano, Farnsworth, and Wright. Well, I can’t argue those signings. Those were bluders, Farnsworth and Wright especially, as they had no chance of working, ever.
====================================
Look, all these collapses are against the team as a whole. They simply didn’t play well enough to win. Some are Cashman moves, some are Boss moves, some are left over from the Stick and Waston regimes, some are scouting department pickups.
=====================================
Giambi was a rational, sensible decision. Tino was on the way downhill. The Yanks didn’t hit at all in the 2001 World Series. They needed a 1st baseman who could hit. They picked the man who was, by all accounts at that moment, either the best or 2nd best hitter in the league (him or Manny). Giambi had done fairly well in the postseason vs. the Yanks. He had just had a very good ALDS in a losing effort for the A’s against the Yanks.
In fact, his postseason hitting record is decent: .279 with 6 HR and 13 RBI in 104 AB over 32 games. He slugged over .500. The Yanks just picked the wrong moment to sign the poster boy for steroid use; that scandal was about to explode, but no one knew it at the time they signed him.
He may have cost them the 2003 World Series, but he helped them survive that year’s ALCS with 2 solo HR’s off Pedro early in game 7. He didn’t hit vs. Detroit in 2006 or the Indians in 2007; but then, almost no one did. (Only Jeter, Abreu and Posada in 2006, only Damon, Abreu and Cano in 2007.)
Mussina was also a rational decision. Neagle didn’t cut it in New York; Cone was finished, more or less. The Yanks signed the best FA pitcher on the market to bolster their rotation. He was 31, and still in his prime.
Mussina’s postseason record is also mixed. He did well in 2001, throwing the big game 3 that kept them alive vs. Oak in the ALDS, won a game vs. the M’s in the next round, pitched a bad game in Arizona and a good one at Yankee Stadium in the Series (what a coincidence!) In 2002, he had a bad game vs. the Angels, but no one had a good one, not even Pettitte, Wells or Clemens.
In 2003 he pitched OK but lost to the Twins in game 1, had one poor start and one decent one against the Sox in the ALCS, before saving the team’s collective ass by getting them out of the 4th inning jam in the 7th game with the score still within reach, and throwing 3 shutout innings on 2 days’ rest, giving them time to rally. In his only start in the Series, he threw 7 good innings, and got the Yanks last win against the Marlins.
In 2005, at the age of 35, with his stuff starting to diminish, he pitched a good game vs. Santana in the ALDS but lost 2-0. Pitched 6 good innings before the Sox caught up to him in the 7th of Game 1, but he still got a win, and pitched 6 more good innings in game 5 with a chance to get a win and lock up the series, but the pen couldn’t hold the 4-2 lead, and we all know what happened.
In 2005, he was lousy against the Angels.
In 2006, he lost the 3-1 lead in the pivotal Game 2 that turned the Series; the team never recovered and was bounced in four games.
In 2007, he had pitched so poorly in the regular season that Torre didn’t even give him a start. He did get into the fourth game in relief of a struggling Wang, and went nearly 5 innings, giving up two runs, just enough to put the deficit out of reach for the offense, which couldn’t hit at all in that series.
Is a 5-6 record with an ERA of 3.80 and a WHIP of 1.22 in 97 IP with 92 K and 23 BB really so bad for a team that went 30-32 in the postseason in his time there? Even if you consider the level of competition and the fact that his stuff was largely gone the last 3 years due to normal aging? I’m not saying he often lifted the Yanks in the postseason in his time with them, but it’s not like he was Jaret Wright, either.
People still say Mussina’s original 6-year deal was one of the best ever long-term deals for a pitcher free agent.
===========================
Is Cashman wrong then, for signing to over-30 players to such long-term deals? Well, both were at the top of their FA classes. Both did very well early in their deals. Both declined severely in the 2nd half of their deals, as they should have. But there are four things that need to be said here:
1. The Yanks had needs that the Mussina and Giambi signings’ logically addressed.
2. The players performed reasonably well, considering their ages over the life of their deals.
3. The players would NOT have signed with the Yanks for shorter deals or for less money, and Free Agents don’t have to sign with the Yanks just because the Yanks need them. A contract is a mutual agreement; you want to the top Free Agents? Give them the money and years they require, or you don’t get ‘em.
4. It made all the strategic sense in the world to try to squeeze out another title or two from the Dynasty Core (Pettitte, Jeter, Bernie, Posada and Mariano) by trying to fill the gaps with top free agents, rather than rebuliding and wasting much of the rest of their top productive seasons.
=================================
Everyone loves CC, AJ, and Tex NOW. But what if the Yanks don’t win it all this year, or in 2010 or 2011? People may not be loving those contracts so much by 2012 or 2013, but that is the price that must be paid for having them NOW, and chasing titles NOW, while the Core is still viable, and while the new guys still in their primes.
It is essentially the same Bargain With The Devil the Yanks made in signing Mussina and Giambi in 2000 and 2001. You call the tune? You have to pay the fiddler at some point.
@ Evan,we agree! the season is not over yet. Who knows if any of these guys spit the bit,the rest of the way. Burnout’s contract might come back to haunt then given his injury history. And CC might not opt out if he gets injured.
@ Ken, they spent 425 million for these thre players! they didn’t develop them. It was goos of Cash Man to get those three guys BUT Charlie McCarthy would have gotten them with the highest bids. Those three Charlie Cheeseburger Burnit and Porkchop Teix was the top three free agents on the market, they were not gutty gritty(and relatively inexpensive) types like Swisher Sweet.
*sigh*
Davd Cone was retained as a free agent. Scott Brosius was retained as a free agent. Roger Clemens was traded here when the Jays wanted out from his salary. Tino Martinez was traded here with Jeff Nelson when the M’s wanted out from his salary. Wetteland was traded here when the Expos wanted out from under his salary. Hideki Irabu was signed after he forced a trade to NY. The list goes on and on.
Cashman isn’t doing anything different from Watson or Michael. They all signed FA’s, they were all players in the int’l market, they had players drafted and developed.
If Tino had 1/2 a brain, he would see that. But hey, whatever, why let facts get in the way of a good rant?
Jeez, I had forgotten how douchey those guys were in that 2007 article linked