• Heyman: Yanks Were Unwilling To Deal Joba Or Hughes For Halladay

    Posted by on December 15th, 2009 · Comments (19)

    I just caught Jon Heyman on the MLB Network Hot Stove show this evening talking about the Roy Halladay trade – and he mentioned that the Yankees were willing to trade Jesus Montero to the Blue Jays for Halladay…but were unwilling to include Joba Chamberlain or Phil Hughes in part of a package.

    The Montero thing is not news to me – as Heyman wrote this yesterday:

    Halladay’s two preferred teams were thought to be the Phillies and Yankees. Indications are the Yankees offered a package that included top catching prospect Jesus Montero as the centerpiece.

    But, the refusal by the Yankees to include Hughes or Chamberlain is news – at least to me.

    So, now, over the last two years, Brian Cashman has refused to part with Hughes or Chamberlain in a deal for Johan Santana or Roy Halladay. Wow.

    I used to think that Jeff Weaver, Carl Pavano and Kei Igawa were the poster children for blown pitching decisions by Brian Cashman. But, there’s a good chance that Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes could take that title from those guys…

    Yes, Joba and Phil are younger and cheaper than Santana and Halladay…and home-grown, etc. But, since the Cashman and the Yankees were willing to spend a half-billion dollars last year on Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira, you can’t say that the Yankees M.O. is all about building from within and saving money on salaries.

    There’s a great chance that Johan Santana and Roy Halladay are heading to Cooperstown someday…as they are that good. Chamberlain and Hughes? Well, they’re still a looooooong way from heading to Cooperstown….and a quite a ways, yet, still, from being established and trust-worthy starting pitchers, period.

    This is a gutsy call by Cashman. I just wish his gut calls had a better track record…

    Comments on Heyman: Yanks Were Unwilling To Deal Joba Or Hughes For Halladay

    1. December 15th, 2009 | 11:23 pm

      you know i read your stuff everyday with my RSS reader – i never have commented before. I like your style, i find what you have to say more interesting then most in the ever growing avalanche of blogs tweets and punditry but you know i must finally say that your endless carping and complaining about brian cashman is making you sound ridiculous.

    2. Larry
      December 16th, 2009 | 12:10 am

      I don’t think this move is as questionable as the potential Santana trade. It wasn’t just the two players, it was the two players plus 60-80 million dollars (with a luxury tax penalty making it almost certain that the actual price would be significantly higher than that) for a 33 year old pitcher for the next 3-4 years. Halladay is an oustanding pitcher, among the very best in baseball. He will probably feast a bit in the NL (at least to start) but the risk when combined with the cost is pretty substantial over the 3-4 years of that deal. would I have wanted to have him sure but I have no problem taking a pass on it all things considered.

    3. Rich
      December 16th, 2009 | 12:17 am

      Come on, Steve. Just because Heyman says something, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s true.

      It sometimes (OK, always) seems as if you want to cast every ambiguous inference in the light most unfavorable to Cashman.

      Let’s also not forget that Joba was pitching like a top tier starter until the shoulder injury, and that most teams in MLB would make Hughes their closer right now. The same may be true of Joba.

      Also, Cash opted not to trade for Santana so that he could spend the money on CC.

      If memory serves, the Yankees won the WS this year, in large part because of CC, so I think for now Cash deserves props, even from you.

      If that’s blowing it, I want more like that.

    4. Pat F
      December 16th, 2009 | 1:24 am

      1. We have no idea if this is accurate. A lot of stuff gets said this time of year. Just yesterday there were about 19 different packages reported for a trade that actually happened. So where does that leave reports on a trade that didn’t happen? I really like heyman, but nobody gets them all right.

      2. If it is true, you can make a legitimate trade for and against. You always want to improve your club, and halladay does that in 2010. But this pitching staff, exactly how currently constructed, just won the 2009 world series. With all the risk and dollars involved with a 32 year old pitcher, no matter how good, when you have just experienced the kind of success the yankees have, sometimes you don’t want to take on the risk even though the short term outlook is so bright. Further, its not just a refusal to give up hughes/joba. Its hughes/joba + montero. Its possible toronto said montero had to be in any deal. The yankees may very well have been willing to give up hughes or joba alone, but toronto wasn’t interested. Maybe they were demanding montero, and the yankees weren’t willing to give up hughes and joba on top of that. So really its not that they wouldn’t give up one of them, its that they wouldn’t gove up one of them, plus montero, which is a whole different ballgame. That’s likely a much better package than what toronto just got, perhaps showing the value that the players we kept have in the eyes of those around baseball.

    5. Evan3457
      December 16th, 2009 | 1:29 am

      Implicit in this post is an evaluation that the call on trading for Santana was blown.

      That is an evaluation I don’t agree with.

      That call kept the Yankees from the playoffs in 2008. Maybe. Or maybe it was Wang and Posada. Or maybe it was the weak years of Jeter, Cano and the loss of Posada and Matsui to injuries demolishing the offense. There’s no way to prove it, one way or the other.

      On the other hand, the call to keep Hughes et al helped them win the title this year, because Hughes and Melky both played nice supporting roles during the season. Some people think the move of Hughes to set up stabilized the pen, and made possible the brilliant run the Yanks took off on over the last 100 games or so.

      Meanwhile, Santana had to be shut down due to an elbow injury. If Santana is the Yanks’ #1 starter starting in 2008, the money isn’t there for both Sabathia and Tex.

      And the Yanks don’t win it all in 2009. Well, that’s my evaluation.

    6. Pat F
      December 16th, 2009 | 1:42 am

      For what it’s worth, sam borden reports at lohud that the blue jays were charging a premium within the division. We don’t know if this is true either, but if it is, you can’t blame toronto for doing so or the yankees for passing. This is the problem with analyzing these things in a vacuum based on what we hear. We have no idea what is actually going on.

      Couldn’t agree with your assessment more evan. Forget santana vs. Whoever we would have traded for him. That is not the proper analysis. It is, as you said, santana vs. Sabathia and teixeira. no way you’re paying all 3. Without even blinking ill take sabathia and teixeira. That santana might be going to cooperstown and we passed on an opportunity to get him, again looked at in a vacuum, is missing the point.

    7. December 16th, 2009 | 2:39 am

      Well for one, its Jon Heyman… if he didnt have an SI email account i would forget who he works for Scott Boras or a baseball site… anyways.. dont trust any non-Boras client info that comes out of Heyman…

      Halladay and Santana dont have what Joba and Phil have… A freakin RING… they were bullpen pieces but pieces that contributed to get to the playoffs and win…

      imagine if we had Santana… and he had the surgery with us… we will be wetting our pants over it…. and when Halladay goes somewhere we forget how he is 33 y/o or he has had niggling injuries…

      worst… how come it was reported – even by Heyman- that Halladay wud require 6 yr deal with us.. but signed for 3 years with Phillies.. either his sources are wrong or Toronto wanted nothing to do with us…

      I still think the call to pass on Santana was the right one as is the call to pass on Halladay… Phil/Joba both might not work out.. but i am sure one of themwill work out…

      Heyman also suggested last July, that the Mets rejected a package of Pelfrey and scrubs for Halladay.. i stopped believing him after that…

      all i need to see, is look over whats going on in Queens to know we have a good GM a good plan and a new RING… Halladay is really not worth Montero and Phil/Joba… If Montero sticks behind the plate.. wow… he is a prospect but i would rather wait onhim than pay for what Halladay has done for Toronto..

    8. December 16th, 2009 | 2:47 am

      There’s a great chance that Johan Santana and Roy Halladay are heading to Cooperstown someday…as they are that good. Chamberlain and Hughes? Well, they’re still a looooooong way from heading to Cooperstown

      ————————

      Doesnt matter.. we are not looking to break a 80 year old curse.. we just won the darn thing.. if not now.. when exactly can we breed these youngsters in the rotation… there will be patience by the fans and FO… also, it doesnt matter if Halladay and Santana goto HOF… they are great pitchers.. but we dont need them on THIS team to win… we need a 4/5 starter.. but not Halladay.. would u have a good 4/5 starter and 2 good prospects or a good #2 and a a ransacked farm… if we are like the Mets and have a #1 and 4 question marks.. i agree.. we have a pretty good 1/2 and a chance for Phil/Joba to get to #3… we are in the best possible shape to let these guys take the next step…

    9. clintfsu813
      December 16th, 2009 | 8:07 am

      Randy Johnson will be in the HOF one day too……

    10. K-V-C
      December 16th, 2009 | 8:25 am

      I don’t think it was Hughes ot Chamberlain, it was the DOUBLE DIPPING. Having to part with half your farm system and then paying for the extension. (How did that work for the Mets?)

      Plus a team needs to develop its own pitching. The free agent money being thrown at pitchers is nuts. And continues to rise. It was a perfect storm last offseason because the Yanks had so much coming off the payroll available for CC, AJ and Tex.

    11. Corey
      December 16th, 2009 | 9:14 am

      Pat F wrote:

      For what it’s worth, sam borden reports at lohud that the blue jays were charging a premium within the division.

      Off topic but, anyone else not a fan of Borden? I think he’s pretty bad…

    12. Pat F
      December 16th, 2009 | 10:20 am

      this is also a perfect example of how you can just play both sides if you choose. is it unreasonable to assume, following this blog, that if we had traded for santana, and presumably not won the world series, steve would be complaining in this space about trading for a guy on the backside of his career who only threw 166.2 innings and had to have season ending surgery 2 years into a 6 year deal for over $20 mil per? i don’t think it’s out of the question. knowing what we know now, passing on santana was clearly the correct move. but yet in this space it is sill being presented as if it is potentially part of a “posterchild” move for bad pitching decisions. you can try to spin anything, but it doesn’t always work. it doesn’t work here.

    13. butchie22
      December 16th, 2009 | 10:44 am

      Steve, Heyman is an idiot half of the time. The Blue Jays during Riccirdi’s(retardis) and Anthopoulos’(Doogie Howser Part Deux) were NEVER going to trade to the Yankees OR the REd Sox. I go to Toronto on business a lot during the year and their fanbase would have stage a revolt if such a thing happened. Giving the face of their franchise to the despised REd Sox OR the Yankees was not a possibility. It was hype from Yankee shills like Heyman, who along with a dope like Ken Rosenthal gets it right only half the time. IN addition, remember when the Jays rejected that insane Red Sox offer this past summer? The Yanks weren’t going to best that by any means, so where is all this bullshit coming out about Joba and Hughes? It’s a huge F^&*(*)G lie, that’s what it is. It’s right up there with the Reyes for Halladay horse dung The Red Sox and the Yankees only had a bloody chance IF they gave up literally half of their farms THEN possibly they had a small chance. we saw what the Jays rejected when the REd Sox offered a gaggle of their best youth. Even then the cost was too high.

      Steve, no one despises Cash Man more than I do BUT this Halladay business is all hogwash. I don’t understand how delusion Yankee and Red Sox were in obtaining Halladay’s services. The pipe dreams were absolutely comical on getting Doc. LIsten: Doc wanted to go to Philly, the Jays wanted their prospects they got the virtually same package they wanted this past summer and the owners, The Rogers, heard the wrath of the fans in the summertime and the trade was called off for the time being.

    14. MJ
      December 16th, 2009 | 3:36 pm

      Steve Lombardi wrote:

      But, since the Cashman and the Yankees were willing to spend a half-billion dollars last year on Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira, you can’t say that the Yankees M.O. is all about building from within and saving money on salaries.

      I don’t think Cashman has ever identified the Yankees M.O. as being “all about building from within” or “saving money.” I think Cashman has always been very open about using the club’s clear financial advantage whenever a sensible opportunity to do so presented itself, as it did with Sabathia’s and Teixeira’s availability via free agency last year. Additionally, I think Cashman has always been very open about using his minor league assets in trades when it made sense but also keeping them as a means to improve his team’s flexibility.

      Cashman never wanted to participate in a “double-taxation” situation such as the one that trading for Johan Santana represented. His desire to keep Chamberlain or Hughes wasn’t borne out of a desire to keep costs low but to avoid paying twice for an asset when a reasonable fascimile would be available via free agency the following year. The Halladay trade market followed that tact to a tee.

      Whether you agree with the decision to skip out on the Santana/Halladay trades is a separate question but you have to understand his motivations and your quote indicates to me that you have misinterpreted Cashman’s M.O.

    15. Raf
      December 16th, 2009 | 3:50 pm

      But, since the Cashman and the Yankees were willing to spend a half-billion dollars last year on Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira, you can’t say that the Yankees M.O. is all about building from within and saving money on salaries.

      No one has said that. The Yankees were never about building from within.

      There’s a great chance that Johan Santana and Roy Halladay are heading to Cooperstown someday…as they are that good. Chamberlain and Hughes? Well, they’re still a looooooong way from heading to Cooperstown….and a quite a ways, yet, still, from being established and trust-worthy starting pitchers, period.

      There’s a great chance that Randy Johnson will be heading to Cooperstown someday, how’d that work out? ;)

    16. Corey
      December 16th, 2009 | 4:00 pm

      @ Raf:
      To be fair, the Unit was already living in an old folk’s home when they got him.

    17. BOHAN
      December 16th, 2009 | 7:04 pm

      michael fierman wrote:

      you know i read your stuff everyday with my RSS reader – i never have commented before. I like your style, i find what you have to say more interesting then most in the ever growing avalanche of blogs tweets and punditry but you know i must finally say that your endless carping and complaining about brian cashman is making you sound ridiculous.

      amen to that.
      steve,
      like i said in another thread you always so pessimistic. lets remember joba is 24 (and we won a ws with him in the rotation pretty much the whole regular season) phil hughes is 23. johan and halladay were bout 25 when they were pitching 200 innings and making a signifcant impact in baseball,which i think joba will do this yr. give these kids a chance to learn how to pitch on the major league level dont be so quick to just ride them off and ship em out. in know this is a oxymoron but be a patient yankee fan for once.

    18. lenyce
      December 16th, 2009 | 11:53 pm

      I think at this point if Steve gets an opportunity to say anything bad about Cashman he will. He just doesn’t like the guy.

    19. BOHAN
      December 17th, 2009 | 12:05 am

      5 world seires in 13 years yea i can see how u can hate the guy. and the span were they didnt win i think was george’s fault he wouldnt listen to cashman and forced him to sign guys like pavano and kevin brown and giambi.

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