• Javy Vazquez – The King Of Ordinary Starters?

    Posted by on April 12th, 2010 · Comments (22)

    I dunno? You tell me. Here are the numbers.

    Comments on Javy Vazquez – The King Of Ordinary Starters?

    1. MJ Recanati
      April 12th, 2010 | 12:34 pm

      With a career 8.1 K/9, I don’t care how ordinary he is. In 2010, Vazquez is merely being asked to hold down the fourth spot in the rotation. Why are we treating his bad start on Friday night as a national crisis? He’s a #4 starter and came to the Yanks in a very reasonable trade that cost the team a backup outfielder.

      Let’s all settle down now.

    2. April 12th, 2010 | 12:40 pm

      I will tell you. You are wrong. You chose a terrible stat to judge him by.

    3. April 12th, 2010 | 12:44 pm

      MJ Recanati wrote:

      With a career 8.1 K/9, I don’t care how ordinary he is.

      Oliver Perez has a career 9.2 K/9 rate. You loving him too?

    4. Corey Italiano
      April 12th, 2010 | 1:06 pm

      Who here actually watched his last start? He was awesome up until the wheels came off in the 4th. That’s not going to happen every time.

    5. 77yankees
      April 12th, 2010 | 1:27 pm

      Steve Lombardi wrote:

      MJ Recanati wrote:
      With a career 8.1 K/9, I don’t care how ordinary he is.
      Oliver Perez has a career 9.2 K/9 rate. You loving him too?

      Oliver has more quality starts in the postseason than Javy.

    6. Corey Italiano
      April 12th, 2010 | 1:31 pm

      @ 77yankees:
      And more than Justin Verlander, too. Doesn’t mean Perez is better.

    7. 77yankees
      April 12th, 2010 | 1:35 pm

      Corey Italiano wrote:

      @ 77yankees:
      And more than Justin Verlander, too. Doesn’t mean Perez is better.

      Didn’t say O.P. was better than Javy….

      or that Javy was better than O.P.

    8. Corey Italiano
      April 12th, 2010 | 2:04 pm

      @ 77yankees:
      My point was that your point doesn’t make a difference with regard to anything. Post season stats are typically too small of a sample size to mean much.

    9. MJ Recanati
      April 12th, 2010 | 2:40 pm

      Steve Lombardi wrote:

      Oliver Perez has a career 9.2 K/9 rate. You loving him too?

      Vazquez pitches 200 innings a year, strikes out a ton of batters and is no worse than a league average starter. What exactly is there to complain about?

    10. Corey Italiano
      April 12th, 2010 | 2:54 pm

      Not to mention, if you think Oliver Perez and Javy Vasquez are anywhere close to the same pitcher, you are not paying attention. Do Javy and everyone else here a favor and watch a Met game. You’ll see.

    11. 77yankees
      April 12th, 2010 | 2:57 pm

      Corey Italiano wrote:

      @ 77yankees:
      Post season stats are typically too small of a sample size to mean much.

      Then how come A-Rod had a reputation as a playoff choker, when he had performed pretty well in his postseasons up until 2004 ALCS Game 4?

    12. MJ Recanati
      April 12th, 2010 | 3:35 pm

      @ 77yankees:
      I think you just answered your own question. The reputation of A-Rod as a playoff choker was always tainted by a small sample size and fan dislike of the individual.

    13. mondoas
      April 12th, 2010 | 3:43 pm

      @ Corey Italiano:
      Who here watched him pitch in 04? He was awesome in the first half and then his “wheels fell off” in the 2ND so maybe people are just sick of his wheels falling off! He needs to go and tighten them because due to his actions in 04 and the 1st game he pitched this year, people simply don’t trust him and he needed to start strong but he didn’t so he’s hearing it from everyone.

    14. Corey Italiano
      April 12th, 2010 | 4:27 pm

      @ mondoas:
      Injuries are not the same as letting the wheels fall off, but who am I to put logic in the way of a good debate, ;).

    15. Corey Italiano
      April 12th, 2010 | 4:35 pm

      MJ Recanati wrote:

      @ 77yankees:
      I think you just answered your own question. The reputation of A-Rod as a playoff choker was always tainted by a small sample size and fan dislike of the individual.

      Couldn’t have said it better myself.

    16. 77yankees
      April 12th, 2010 | 5:19 pm

      MJ Recanati wrote:

      @ 77yankees:
      I think you just answered your own question. The reputation of A-Rod as a playoff choker was always tainted by a small sample size and fan dislike of the individual.

      And there’s the point – A-Rod at least had a measure of success in past postseasons, while Javy has allowed 18 runs in 15 postseason innings and has never had any postseason/big game success: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=vazquja01&t=p&post=1

      A-Rod’s personality had more to do with him being branded than his record/sample size.

      To answer the Oliver Perez comparison, I imagine Perez instills the same confidence in Met fans that Javy instills when he starts. There’s talent there, but the mental makeup is lacking. And until he proves otherwise consistently, my opinion of Vazquez will not change.

    17. Evan3457
      April 12th, 2010 | 5:59 pm

      Look, let’s take an otherwise decent starter. Let’s pretend he’s just about the worst clutch pitcher in history; a man known for historic chokes in nearly every big game he pitches over the course of three years with a team.

      Let’s assume that this pitcher pitches for a very good team, one capable of winning three pennants and two titles. Now, this pitcher, normally respectable, simply doesn’t have it in big games. Maybe it’s his lack of stuff. Maybe his command goes bad on him. Maybe he can’t take the heat.

      It is STILL entirely possible for this pitcher to be an essential cog in winning a championship, or even two.

      How? Because his team is in a tight division, and wins the division by a razor’s edge one year, and the top layer of that edge the next year. So this guy beats up on the bad teams, the way a good team has to, in order to pile up enough wins to make it to the postseason. He might win 18 games a year, for three years. He might even win 20 games in one season this way, right when his team needs it the most. He goes deep enough in enough games to take the heat off the pen most of the times he goes out there. He provides stability to a rotation with multiple question marks; injury question marks, inexperience question marks, performance question marks.

      And in the postseason, his manager is smart enough to get him out early when he gets knocked around, and the team is good enough to come back and win nearly half of those games. In one series, the manager is smart enough not to start him at all, even though he tied for the staff lead in wins that year, and lead the them in innings pitched.

      All this mystery pitcher needs is a name….what shall we call him. Oh, I dunno….how about…

      …Ed Figueroa?

      If Javy can do the Figueroa thing; win 15 games or so with an average ERA, and help deliver the Yanks to the post-season past the Red Sox and Rays, then, even if he “dies” in late-September, even if he gets racked up in head-to-head games with them, even if he’s frackin’ useless or worse in the post-season…I’m good with that, if the Yanks win it all anyway, dragging Javy backwards on his rump all the way.

      Big if, of course, but doable.

    18. Corey Italiano
      April 12th, 2010 | 6:00 pm

      77yankees wrote:

      And there’s the point – A-Rod at least had a measure of success in past postseasons, while Javy has allowed 18 runs in 15 postseason innings and has never had any postseason/big game success: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?n1=vazquja01&t=p&post=1

      A-Rod’s personality had more to do with him being branded than his record/sample size.

      If you don’t see the err in what you’ve said, then there’s no sense debating any further.

      Do yourself a favor and watch the Mets the next time Oliver Perez toes the rubber. You’ll appreciate Javy after that, for sure.

    19. 77yankees
      April 12th, 2010 | 6:21 pm

      I love how some people just take it so personally that not everyone in the world agrees with them.

      I for one, won’t be gnashing my teeth because I can’t get someone to agree with me. Because I don’t share my opinions for that purpose to begin with.

    20. Raf
      April 12th, 2010 | 6:55 pm

      77yankees wrote:

      Corey Italiano wrote:
      @ 77yankees:
      Post season stats are typically too small of a sample size to mean much.

      Then how come A-Rod had a reputation as a playoff choker, when he had performed pretty well in his postseasons up until 2004 ALCS Game 4?

      Because there are some fans who have a hard time believing that Rodriguez had a career before he came to NY :D

      People take their cue from the media. If the media writes that Rodriguez is a playoff choker, then the typical fan will believe that he’s a playoff choker despite evidence to the contrary.

    21. Raf
      April 12th, 2010 | 6:58 pm

      mondoas wrote:

      @ Corey Italiano:
      Who here watched him pitch in 04? He was awesome in the first half and then his “wheels fell off” in the 2ND so maybe people are just sick of his wheels falling off! He needs to go and tighten them because due to his actions in 04 and the 1st game he pitched this year, people simply don’t trust him and he needed to start strong but he didn’t so he’s hearing it from everyone.

      And what about 05? 06? 07? 08? 09?

      He’s had bad starts before during the 5 seasons that have passed since 2004. He’ll be ok.

    22. Raf
      April 12th, 2010 | 7:00 pm

      To be fair, this is what Steve wrote in the study;
      “Granted, wins (awarded to a starting pitcher) are contingent on many things. And, as such, you have to take them for what their worth (in terms of context). But, this is just a fun list to look at – and debate why some of these guys worked so long while not getting more wins and/or less losses.”

      Just a fun list, to discuss, no need to gnash teeth and render garments :)

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