• Don Larsen Has Company

    Posted by on October 6th, 2010 · Comments (20)

    Sigh.  Roy Halladay has now joined Don Larsen as the only other pitcher to throw a no-hitter in a postseason game.

    Doc’s great and all but I always wanted the Yankees to have this one bit of trivia to themselves.

    At least it wasn’t a perfect game…

    Add on by Steve Lombardi:

    Roy Halladay.

    The Yankees have tons of money. Reportedly, they have one of the best farm systems in baseball now – again, according to some sources. And, they have a (cough, cough) an astute peach of a General Manager…

    …and, yet, somehow…

    when Halladay was on the market, even though he had an interest in coming to the Yankees, Cashman let this guy go to the Phillies because he didn’t want to include Joba Chamberlain in a deal. Wow.

    Comments on Don Larsen Has Company

    1. MJ Recanati
      October 6th, 2010 | 7:51 pm

      Steve, only you could turn this historic moment in baseball into yet another rip on Brian Cashman.

      Did the Blue Jays intend to trade Roy Halladay to the Yankees? By all accounts, the answer is no.

      Jesus Christ, get a grip on both reality and the concept “there’s a time and a place…”

    2. October 6th, 2010 | 8:31 pm

      MJ Recanati wrote:

      By all accounts, the answer is no.

      Prove it.

    3. Raf
      October 6th, 2010 | 10:00 pm

      Steve Lombardi wrote:

      Prove it.

      If the Jays wanted to trade Halladay to the Yankees, they would have.

    4. October 6th, 2010 | 11:06 pm

      @ Raf:
      Read the Heyman report in my link. They would have traded him to the Yankees for Joba and Montero. But, the Yankees/Cashman would not give up Joba.

    5. Raf
      October 6th, 2010 | 11:29 pm

      @ Steve Lombardi:
      I read the link and commented on it. They claim that’s what they would’ve done. “Indications” that it would take Joba and Montero to get the job done isn’t the same as “it would take Joba and Montero to get the job done.”

      Also lost in the shuffle was the fact that the trade was between 3 teams, so it’s possible that the Yanks were on the outside looking in on Halladay.

    6. October 7th, 2010 | 12:29 am

      @ Raf:
      You moved from a statement of certainty to one of possibility pretty fast there.

    7. Evan3457
      October 7th, 2010 | 12:33 am

      That’s OK, Steve.

      Rather have Montero and Lee, than just Halladay. If he beats them in the Series this year, that’s OK with me, because:

      1) Shiite happens.
      2) They still have Montero.
      3) It means that despite their bad last month, they still made the Series, and…
      4) Shiite happens.

    8. Evan3457
      October 7th, 2010 | 12:34 am

      …and I know MJ will hand me my head, but I still think Joba has a good shot of turning into a valuable pitcher.

    9. Raf
      October 7th, 2010 | 8:39 am

      Steve Lombardi wrote:

      You moved from a statement of certainty to one of possibility pretty fast there.

      There’s more than one angle to consider when making a trade, especially when you consider how the Cliff Lee trade to the Rangers went down.

      At any rate, trades are about negotiating, you go back and forth until you come to an agreement. If the Jays really wanted to trade Halladay to the Yanks, they would have.

    10. MJ Recanati
      October 7th, 2010 | 8:49 am

      Evan3457 wrote:

      …and I know MJ will hand me my head, but I still think Joba has a good shot of turning into a valuable pitcher.

      Evan, I may hate #62 more than any Yankee than I can remember but I don’t deny his talent. It’s precisely because of that abundance of talent that I dislike him. I see him wasting his talents with a stubborn, predictable approach to pitching (not to mention how much I dislike his preening, arrogant antics when he’s accomplished nothing in the game to warrant an outsized ego).

      Anyway, I just wanted to set the record straight. I’ve never said #62 has no talent.

    11. MJ Recanati
      October 7th, 2010 | 9:04 am

      @ Steve Lombardi:
      Here’s the problem. You’re using the link to this article as incontrovertible evidence that the Yankees had a trade with Toronto as long as Hughes or Chamberlain were included in the deal with Montero.

      A few months ago, when the Rangers acquired Cliff Lee from Seattle, you made the argument that the Mariners “played” Cashman by using him as a pot-sweetener to get the deal they really wanted from Texas.

      How can you be 100% certain that the Yankees passed on Roy Halladay in one instance but then be 100% certain that the Yankees got used as a step-ladder in another instance?

      The point is, you can’t. You have no more insight into the veracity of Heyman’s story on a Halladay-to-Yankees trade than I do, and certainly no basis to be making claims about one trade scenario while arguing the exact opposite point of view in another scenario. This is what I mean when I say that your arguments are logically inconsistent.

      My belief — as uninformed as your own — is that the Blue Jays had no interest in trading Roy Halladay within the division. I base that belief on the fact that they didn’t trade him to either Boston or New York during the 2009 trading deadline and, again, they didn’t do so during the 2009-2010 off-season. I also base it on the belief that intra-divisional or intra-league trades for impact players are extremely rare. And, as Raf says, if the Blue Jays wanted to trade Halladay to the Yankees, they would have. Considering it took the Mariners and A’s involvement, it’s also just as likely that the Yankees and Blue Jays couldn’t come to an agreement on their own.

      At the end of the day, all you’re going on is the subjective belief that Cashman is a bad GM. You’ll make inferences and assumptions and use any bit of evidence to make the case, even if that evidence, on its face, is completely inconclusive.

      * * * * * *

      Beyond all that, my original point stands. Sometimes you just have to appreciate what you’re watching without always trying to tie it back to Brian Cashman. Even if he’s the worst GM in the universe, can’t you ever let it go, even for a minute? We just watched one of the rarest and coolest things to happen in a baseball game. Shelve the hate once in a while.

    12. festus
      October 7th, 2010 | 12:20 pm

      Steve’s post and the ensuing conversation is high comedy to me, completely unmoored from sensible perspective either on what Halladay did yesterday or on the exigencies of any business negotiation. Sure, someone told Heyman “We would’ve done it for X or Y.” Let’s set aside the motives of that anonymous person giving “indications” of what might’ve happened if the Yanks hadn’t been so stubborn in holding onto Joba(and really, it’s in any team’s interest to leak these kinds of “indications” to the press to cast the Yankees as unreasonable in order to pressure them in the future to have a looser grip on their prospects)and take the Heyman report at face value. Isn’t it kind of like saying 3 hours after a poker game, I would’ve gone all in on that pot if both x and y would’ve happened? My reaction to someone saying that is to shrug and say, “yeah, maybe,” but Steve’s reaction is to assign motivations and cast blame (not coincidentally all Cashman’s). To me, that’s just how negotiations work, it’s a sloppy process of information asymmetry, designed to result in imperfect decision-making. There’s nothing in Heyman’s article that says the Jays told Cashman, “Look, it’s Joba and Montero for Halladay or scram.” Steve makes it sound like Cashman had some kind of almost dumb childish spite in the negotiations, instead of it being a difficult, complicated (3 teams!) process between seasoned professionals.

      I think the baseball gods should sentence Steve to 5 years as a Pirates fan for this post. Or worse, the Mets.

      BTW, I love watching Halladay but can appreciate (even love!) great baseball players that don’t play for the Yankees. I don’t think the right impulse is after the final out reach towards the t.v. screen and shout “MINE!” like a toddler. Anyway, very much enjoying and excited for the postseason waswatching scene!

    13. MJ Recanati
      October 7th, 2010 | 12:55 pm

      @ festus:
      Re: your first two paragraphs, I agree completely.

      Re: your final paragraph, I think you misinterpreted the spirit of my post. I wasn’t angry that Halladay pitched a no-hitter or that the Yankees no longer had sole dominion over post-season no-hitters. I wish it could’ve been Larsen’s record forever but, alas it can’t (and isn’t) so that’s just how it goes. I like Halladay and I love the fact that we witnessed some spectacular baseball history last night.

    14. G.I. Joey
      October 7th, 2010 | 1:04 pm

      Doc’s performance was indeed historical and awesome to witness, but I’ll always hold Larsen’s accomplishment in a different light because:

      1)It was a perfect game.
      2)It was in the World Series.

    15. festus
      October 7th, 2010 | 1:53 pm

      @MJ, no worries, my critical comment was responding entirely to Steve regretting that Cashman didn’t grab Halladay when (in Steve’s view) he was there for the taking. Just reacting to the impulse of some entitled Yankee fans (and hey, not casting stones, I’m as spoiled as the rest of em) that everyone great is really meant for OUR team and we should be bitter about that player’s great performance for another team b/c he REALLY shoulda been OURS. I feel like it was similar when we didn’t get Schilling (not necessarily with Steve, but others), and it just rubs me the wrong way. It’s not a failure to not end up with every single great available player.

      I think your point about being sad for the Larsen record is fine. I’m not really sad about it for the reasons Joey lists, and Larsen will get to clean up a little cash and kudos for a few weeks.

    16. GDH
      October 7th, 2010 | 2:49 pm

      @ G.I. Joey:

      GI Joey, add to that that Don Larsen made his history against this here lineup:

      1. Jim Gilliam
      2. Pee Wee Reese
      3. Duke Snyder
      4. Jackie Robinson
      5. Gil Hodges
      6. Sandy Amoros
      7. Carl Furillo
      8. Roy Campanella
      9. Sal Maglie

    17. Jake1
      October 7th, 2010 | 3:36 pm

      Toronto had ZERO intentions of trading within the division. They wouldnt even entertain a Montero offer.

      Why does it always go back to Cashman with u steve? The guys has made some clunker moves but he was dying for Halladay. Evidenced by his offering Montero. Not his fault.

      Blame him for Javy, Nick Johnson, and Park etc etc.

    18. MJ Recanati
      October 7th, 2010 | 4:11 pm

      Jake1 wrote:

      Blame him for…Park…

      What’s to blame for Park? Taking a $1.5M chance on a relief pitcher that had done pretty well in the role the previous season? $1.5M is play-money for most teams and Park’s addition to the roster didn’t cost anyone of any terrible importance a roster spot. And when Park proved that he wasn’t a good fit for the club? The Yanks dropped him like a bad habit and replaced him from within. No harm, no foul.

    19. GDH
      October 7th, 2010 | 6:14 pm

      Hell that one interview he did was worth $1.5 million.

    20. 77yankees
      October 7th, 2010 | 8:29 pm

      G.I. Joey wrote:

      Doc’s performance was indeed historical and awesome to witness, but I’ll always hold Larsen’s accomplishment in a different light because:
      1)It was a perfect game.
      2)It was in the World Series.

      Imagine if someone today, in a Game 5 of a World Series tied 2-2, went out a threw a perfect game. He’d get a book deal, a movie deal, and be able to punch his own ticket the rest of his life.

      No disrespect to Halladay at all, but until someone equals or does one better in similar circumstance, Don Larsen will always have the greatest game pitched in MLB history.

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