One View On WFAN Breakfast With Cashman
Posted by Steve L. on January 26th, 2011 · Comments (35)
Have you read Keefe To The City: Cash Talks?
I love it when someone “gets it” regarding Brian Cashman. The movement is building…
Comments on One View On WFAN Breakfast With Cashman
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If getting it involves quoting the Jersey Shore, I’m glad I don’t get it.
Did Cashman really compare Russell Martin to Thurman Munson? At this rate, you have to get rid of Cash solely for the sake of making a change. I think the pressure is getting to him. If he doesn’t flat out tell the Brothers Stein to shove it and quit, I say by August they’re gonna have to wheel this guy into work in a straight-jacket like he’s Hannibal Lecter.
Ryan81 wrote:
With all due respect to those that grew up idolizing Munson and have mythologized him because of his grit and his tragic death…
…but…
according to the similarity scores on Baseball-Reference, Russell Martin’s closest comp at age 27 is none other than Thurman Munson. Similarly, Thurman Munson’s age 26 and age 27 comps were Russell Martin.
http://tinyurl.com/459y48h
http://tinyurl.com/4whfkl3
Fire Cashman if you want to, but don’t accuse him of being crazy when all he’s doing is reading B-R.
Read the article.
Unimpressed with the writer’s take.
Sorry; don’t see anything new or especially relevant.
…and this isn’t a popular movement, anyway.
Either the front office has already decided he’s done at the end of the year’s contract, or he’s not.
MJ Recanati wrote:
AMEN to that!
Corey Italiano wrote:
Same here.
Nothing particularly new, relevant, groundbreaking or whatever. Someone said something about him, he defended his decisions. In the immortal words of Derrick Coleman (to keep the NJ theme going), whoop-de-damn do
Whoop-de-damn-do still cracks me up after all these years
MJ Recanati wrote:
I can’t not comment on this since Thurman Munson is the reason that I am a Yankee fan. Please MJ, you MUST know better. You know numbers never tell the whole story. And Thurman Munson’s best years came after age 27. I didn’t hear what Cashman said but if, in fact, he did compare Martin to Munson, that’s just inexplicable to me.
LMJ229 wrote:
They tell enough of a story.
Then, in theory, that should bode well for Martin, since they are similar players.
@ LMJ229:
If you want to lionize Munson, go right ahead. From everything I’ve heard, Munson absolutely deserves the love and loyalty of fans after all these years. He really sounds like the Don Mattingly of his generation (my favorite player when I was a little kid).
But, having said that, it’s absurd to chastize someone for “daring” to compare someone to Munson. You can choose to ignore stats and say that Munson transcended them but that’s what people say about Jeter and yet, at the end of the day, it’s the stats that matter. The rest is all subjective.
The fact is that Martin resembles Munson through age 27. What Martin becomes beyond that age is not presently known. He may continue his downward trajectory and be out of baseball in a few short years. If Munson fans don’t like hearing that then I suggest they put their fingers in their ears and say “LALALALA” very loudly.
It’s OK to compare players to legendary icons. The world WILL go on.
Raf wrote:
Why play the games then? Let’s just analyze the numbers and declare a winner.
Evan3457 wrote:
Actually, as much as I’ve been bashing Cashman, I will admit that I get the impression that he’s a little biased (especially after reading his Torre article and comparing the 2). Then again, I think that Cashman was viewed a little more unfavorably because he still represents the organization while Torre has been removed from the job for a couple of years.
MJ Recanati wrote:
I’m not accusing him of being crazy because he’s reading BR. I’m calling him crazy because his actions (IMO baseball and media related actions) give me the picture that this guy is wilting away at the pressure of being the GM of the Yankees and working under the Steinbrenners (don’t know which one is greater but that’s a whole other debate). There’s a reason why the Yankees haven’t had a GM tenured this long in over 50 years: this is not a job somebody clings to.
Also, what company had that commercial where the boss was singing his orders to his employees to “For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow” during a retirement party and points to one of the workers and says “I need to speak to you privately; I found your resume in the printer”? Yeah, I think Hal is going to be telling that to Brian Cashman soon.
MJ Recanati wrote:
Yeah and Don Mattingly was compared to Don Hurst when he was 26.
Raf wrote:
So you’re telling me that you believe Martin will hit over .300 and drive in over 100 runs for the next 3 years and win the AL MVP award?
LMJ229 wrote:
Do you honestly think that Munson would have the rep he did if he hit like Francsico Cervelli?
Munson is who he is, mainly because of his stats. You can bring up heart grittiness, whatever, but he is who he is because of the numbers he posted during his career. THAT’S why he’s enshrined in Monument Park, but not Cooperstown.
LMJ229 wrote:
Are you saying it’s impossible?
Raf wrote:
Of course not, what kind of question is that?
Raf wrote:
Of course he’s considered an “immortal” because of his stats and what he meant to the organization. I don’t get your point.
Raf wrote:
Well, if I were you I sure wouldn’t bet my house on it. My point is, you are putting way too much emphasis on the stats. You’re the one who speculated on Martin’s future stats based on his comparison to Munson at age 26 and 27. You really can’t do that. You can’t take one player at age 26, compare him to another player at age 26 and, based on that, speculate what his future stats will be.
The comments in question
Cashman hopes Russell Martin can be the type of clubhouse presence that Nick Swisher has been for the Yankees for two years, but really he hopes that Martin returns to being the player he was when he came up with the Dodgers. Cashman said he thought Martin was the second coming of Thurman Munson at the time.
Cashman’s referring to Martin when he first appeared in the majors.
Raf wrote:
Yes, “at the time” are the key words there. I have no problem with what Cashman said.
Raf wrote:
His first two full years, especially, when Martin was VERY MUCH like Thurman. And then Torre beat him into the ground.
LMJ229 wrote:
I merely said it’s a possibility based on what he has done up to that point. Similarity scores aren’t set in stone, but if a bunch of catchers have performed a certain way by a certain age, then it’s not outside the realm of possibility that a catcher of that subset will perform like the rest of his peers.
Martin could have an average year, he could pull an MVP season out of his ass, he could fall off the face of the earth, we don’t know.
BUT based on the numbers he has posted, we can make a reasonable guess as to how he’ll do next season..
Evan3457 wrote:
I guess given his rep with pitchers, I guess it’s natural that he’d blow up catchers too
Evan3457 wrote:
Yes, I would agree that their stats compare favorably for that time frame. I just don’t think you can speculate on Martin’s future stats based on that and compare him to Thurman Munson beyond that.
I believe in that rep with relievers; others don’t. But this much is indisputable.
Russell Martin, games started at catcher:
age 24: 143
age 25: 138
age 26: 133
What else is there to say? Maybe this: the only catcher I can find who was worked anything like that hard at that age was Pudge Rodriguez.
@ Raf:
So you think he will do well then? Well I hope that you are right.
@ Evan3457:
WOW that is a lot of games! I think you hit the nail on the head with your Torre comment.
I expanded my search parameters and found these guys:
Bench caught 404 games as a starter over 3 straight years. He was finished as a regular catcher by 32.
Ted Simmons started a staggering 438 games at catcher when he was 23-4-5. He was also done as a regular catcher by age 32.
Jason Kendall started 399 games at catcher his first three years. Only an injury when he was 25 kept it from being 5 straight hard years.
Gary Carter, 425 games at 23-4-5. His knees went on him, and he was done as a top hitter by 32, although he caught regularly for two more years.
Jim Sundberg caught 420 games at 24-5-6, then caught 145, 144, and 145 at ages 27-8-9. Great defensive catcher (never really a great hitter, and rarely a good hitter).
LMJ229 wrote:
If you agree, as you have said, then what’s the issue here? Comparing Martin to someone he already statistically compares with seems pretty harmless.
I’m sorry but when an author uses Jersey Shore as an example, I’m not reading it.
MJ Recanati wrote:
I just don’t think you can speculate on Martin’s future production based on that. He might compare favorably to Thurman Munson at age 26 and 27. At age 28 and 29 he might compare favorably to Francisco Cervelli or Johnny Bench. I take comparative stats at face value, nothing more. I don’t buy into using comparative stats to speculate on future production.
@ LMJ229:
Neither Brian Cashman nor I were speculating on Martin’s progression into the future. I have no idea where you or anyone else got that from.
I was responding to Raf’s speculation:
Raf wrote:
@ LMJ229:
Raf’s speculation isn’t far off the mark. While we don’t know what will happen in the future, the fact remains that existing statistics can be highly predictive.
If you don’t like thinking that someone else might match Munson’s numbers then I really don’t know what to tell you. There have already been a handful of catchers — Pudge Rodriguez, Mike Piazza, Jorge Posada, to name a few — that have blown by Munson from an offensive perspective.
It was not an affront to Munson’s legacy to say that Martin has been similar to him up to this point and Raf isn’t incorrect in saying that it bodes well for Martin in the future. Raf’s not saying Martin will absolutely remain on Munson’s course, he’s merely saying that the stats to this point show that it is possible.
As Raf mentioned someplace else in this thread, heart, grit, leadership and all that other intangible stuff aside, Munson is ultimately measured as a baseball player by his statistics. Mike Piazza may never have been as gritty or tough as Munson but it’s not even close as to who the more potent offensive force was and, as a result, the better historical player.
LMJ229 wrote:
Yeah, but many GM’s do.
Based on the numbers posted and trends, it’s fairly easy to project what a player could possibly bring to the table. Maybe he will exceed those projections, maybe he won’t, time will tell.
This really isn’t any different than doing budgeting and forecasting.
Of course, it should be noted that given the numbers posted by Evan3457 WRT Martin’s usage pattern, he may only have a couple of years left, or he may not be able to bounce back. Time will tell.