• The Pujols Thread

    Posted by on February 15th, 2011 · Comments (28)

    Being old enough to have lived through the shock of  Bobby Murcer being traded to the Giants for Bobby Bonds, Ken Rosenthal’s speculation on Fox Sports concerning a possible Pujols for Teixeira trade caught my eye.  Is something like this even remotely possible?   How could the Yanks not make this move if it somehow came their way?  It might cost 350 million for 10 0r even more but how do you not dive in?  The only hesitation, the haunting thought before pulling the trigger, could this turn out to be another AROD in the making?

    Comments on The Pujols Thread

    1. KPOcala
      February 15th, 2011 | 9:42 pm

      I also remember that trade, has it been “that long”? No way in hell would I pay that kind of money/years for Pujols, especially since there are whispers of him being older than his ID. On the other hand the Yanks could have Old Timers Day with active players ….

    2. Raf
      February 15th, 2011 | 10:40 pm

      I will be very surprised if he signs a $350/10 contract.

      Having said that, the Yanks would be foolish not to look into the offer if the Cardinals don’t think they can come to an agreement. I’d imagine that he’d come at a pretty steep price, though.

    3. Evan3457
      February 15th, 2011 | 10:44 pm

      Tooting my own horn here, a small toot.

      Just past midnight, Sunday into Monday, I posted a thread with this very idea over at YES Network Message Boards: http://tinyurl.com/494cbyf

      This was before the Rosenthal piece, before Harold Reynolds made his statement on MLB network.

      If you read the thread-stating post, you’ll see my reasons for making the deal. Of course, if we knew for certain that Pujols was 34 instead of 31 and only three months older than Tex, then that would change my opinion rapidly.

      One of my main points is that the deal does not have to include resigning Pujols at all in order for it to work for the Yanks. Or, if they do, they can sign him on their terms (years), not his, or just let him walk away for the two high draft picks.

    4. Corey Italiano
      February 16th, 2011 | 12:59 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      Didn’t we all talk about this in a thread here at the end off the season when Tex was struggling again?

    5. February 16th, 2011 | 1:34 pm

      Tex has a full no-trade clause, FWIW.

    6. Evan3457
      February 16th, 2011 | 1:52 pm

      Corey Italiano wrote:

      @ Evan3457:
      Didn’t we all talk about this in a thread here at the end off the season when Tex was struggling again?

      Could be.
      I don’t remember exactly.

    7. Evan3457
      February 16th, 2011 | 1:54 pm

      Steve Lombardi wrote:

      Tex has a full no-trade clause, FWIW.

      Yeah, I know.
      That’s why it won’t happen.

      They’d have to bump him to $25 million a year, probably, to get him to waive it, with the Yanks picking up that extra $2.5 million a year, on top of the $30 million a year they’d probably have to pay Pujols to get him to agree to a 5-6 year deal instead of a 10-year deal.

    8. Corey Italiano
      February 16th, 2011 | 5:38 pm

      I like the idea of possibly not re-signing Pujols, taking the draft picks and moving Montero to 1B. Take the extra money you have from Tex and get a starting pitchah.

    9. jrk
      February 16th, 2011 | 6:50 pm

      Anyone here actually think this trade has a greater than 5% chance of happening?

    10. Evan3457
      February 16th, 2011 | 7:36 pm

      jrk wrote:

      Anyone here actually think this trade has a greater than 5% chance of happening?

      Nah.

      It SHOULD happen.

      But it won’t.

    11. Evan3457
      February 16th, 2011 | 7:38 pm

      Corey Italiano wrote:

      I like the idea of possibly not re-signing Pujols, taking the draft picks and moving Montero to 1B. Take the extra money you have from Tex and get a starting pitchah.

      Or Jeter’s long-term replacement plus Granderson’s long-term replacement.

      Or Prince Fielder and keep Montero at catcher.

      Or a solid #2 pitcher and a solid left-fielder and shift Gardner back to center, or if he really can’t hit, move him to the bench or trade him.

      Or…
      well you get the idea.

    12. ken
      February 19th, 2011 | 12:24 pm

      Why would anyone want to make this trade????

      Why is it that every time an elite player goes on the market that every Yankee fan thinks it is our birthright to sign them to our team? Didn’t the 2000-2005 era teach us anything? How many Arods do we need? Meaning: older players in declining years getting paid for what they did for the team they were on before coming to NYY? And having everyone else is baseball laugh at us for it.

      Let someone else overpay this guy.

      Also, we already know that Tex is a good fit here. Why take a chance on learning that Albert can’t handle NY. There is no better place for apologetic fans than St. L.

      Oh, and there’s the matter of: 1) a not so friendly right hand hitter’s ballpark and 2) Tex’s defense which saves runs. That’s as good as getting RBIs.

      Am I missing something?

    13. Raf
      February 19th, 2011 | 9:54 pm

      ken wrote:

      Why is it that every time an elite player goes on the market that every Yankee fan thinks it is our birthright to sign them to our team? Didn’t the 2000-2005 era teach us anything? How many Arods do we need?

      It isn’t a birthright, but let’s not kid ourselves here.

      The 2000-2005 era taught us about the randomness of the playoffs, and nothing is guaranteed in the postseason.

      How many ARods? We’re doing fine with the one we have, but I wouldn’t mind having others with his talent and work ethic.

      Meaning: older players in declining years getting paid for what they did for the team they were on before coming to NYY?

      Been that way since free agency started. Reggie was paid on past production. Catfish was paid on past production. Boggs, Strawberry, Chili Davis, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, all paid on past production. Not quite sure of your point.

      Am I missing something?

      Yes; Pujols is to Teix as ARod is to Jeter

    14. agsf
      February 20th, 2011 | 1:42 am

      Raf wrote:

      I’d imagine that he’d come at a pretty steep price, though.

      Hahahaha. Insightful comment.

    15. agsf
      February 20th, 2011 | 1:45 am

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Or, if they do, they can sign him on their terms (years)

      You’re living in a dream world. It will only be on his terms. The reason most fans believe they can do a better job than cashman is because they live in bizarro land where nothing is based in reality land. In bizarroland, yes, great plan. In the real world, not a chance.

    16. agsf
      February 20th, 2011 | 1:49 am

      Raf wrote:

      How many ARods? We’re doing fine with the one we have, but I wouldn’t mind having others with his talent and work ethic.

      Yes, you have one arod that the yankees front office would not sign to the same deal, one arod that is the reason st. louis is cautious about pujols. One arod that unless he changes the general history of sluggers will be an aging dh and a anchor around the yankees necks sooner than later.

      The entire league uses the arod contract and his current situation as a caution tale, and you want another one. You would sink any team you controlled. Stick to fantasy baseball.

    17. Corey Italiano
      February 20th, 2011 | 2:02 am

      ken wrote:

      2) Tex’s defense which saves runs. That’s as good as getting RBIs.

      Am I missing something?

      Yea, you are…Pujols is every bit the defender that Tex is, plus the extras on offense. This deal is a pipedream, but don’t make it seem like we are being overzealous by thinking about it…it’s not as out of the box as most of the dreck that we read.

    18. Corey Italiano
      February 20th, 2011 | 2:03 am

      agsf wrote:

      The entire league uses the arod contract and his current situation as a caution tale, and you want another one. You would sink any team you controlled. Stick to fantasy baseball.

      No offense, but if I were given a choice between you and Raf as my GM, i’m going Raf 10 times out of 10. Not just cause I’ve known him for a while either, the man knows what hes talking about.

    19. Evan3457
      February 20th, 2011 | 7:11 am

      agsf wrote:

      Evan3457 wrote:
      Or, if they do, they can sign him on their terms (years)
      You’re living in a dream world. It will only be on his terms. The reason most fans believe they can do a better job than cashman is because they live in bizarro land where nothing is based in reality land. In bizarroland, yes, great plan. In the real world, not a chance.

      False accusation.

      I don’t believe I can do a better job than Cashman. Not in the slightest.

      And yes, they could’ve signed Pujols on their terms, because 1) they’re in position to offer more money per year than anyone else, and not by a little and 2) the presence of Montero allows them to just let Pujols walk away for the two draft picks, and 3) it’s not at all certain that Teixiera isn’t beginning to decline, a little prematurely for a hitter of his quality, but it’s happened before.

    20. Evan3457
      February 20th, 2011 | 7:15 am

      Corey Italiano wrote:

      agsf wrote:
      The entire league uses the arod contract and his current situation as a caution tale, and you want another one. You would sink any team you controlled. Stick to fantasy baseball.
      No offense, but if I were given a choice between you and Raf as my GM, i’m going Raf 10 times out of 10. Not just cause I’ve known him for a while either, the man knows what hes talking about.

      And he’s never abusive or insulting.

      Especially without cause.

    21. Raf
      February 20th, 2011 | 9:07 am

      agsf wrote:

      Stick to fantasy baseball.

      Nah, I’d rather stick around here so that you can obsess over my posts, since they clearly mean so much to you. At least it’ll give you something to do ;)

      One arod that unless he changes the general history of sluggers will be an aging dh and a anchor around the yankees necks sooner than later.

      Name the last player that was an “anchor around the yankees necks.”

    22. ken
      February 20th, 2011 | 10:32 am

      Raf wrote:

      The 2000-2005 era taught us about the randomness of the playoffs, and nothing is guaranteed in the postseason.

      My lesson from those years is avoid overpaying spineless pitchers and aging, formerly great position players. And don’t give up young talent (esp pitching prospects) in the process.

    23. ken
      February 20th, 2011 | 10:47 am

      Raf wrote:

      How many ARods? We’re doing fine with the one we have, but I wouldn’t mind having others with his talent and work ethic.

      Raf, How are you going to feel in the last years of his contract (ages 39-42) when he’s a 285 hitter and 20 HRs, a step slower at 3B and he is blocking the team’s ability to sign younger FA’s and/or bring up prospects?

    24. ken
      February 20th, 2011 | 10:55 am

      Raf wrote:

      Name the last player that was an “anchor around the yankees necks.”

      Giambi. K Brown. R Johnson (we got lucky that personal circumstances compelled him to return to AZ).

    25. Raf
      February 20th, 2011 | 10:56 am

      ken wrote:

      My lesson from those years is avoid overpaying spineless pitchers and aging, formerly great position players. And don’t give up young talent (esp pitching prospects) in the process.

      Those were hardly the problems from 2000-05.

      I don’t think Pettitte, Rivera, Wells, Clemens, Wang, Mussina, etc were spineless pitchers. They won the Series in 2000, made it in 2001 and 2003. The 2002 Yankees featured a rotation of Mussina, Pettitte, Clemens, Wells and Orlando Hernandez, neither a slouch in their own right. The patchwork rotation in 2004 was able to run out a 3-0 series lead with Mussina, Orlando Hernandez, Jon Lieber and Kevin Brown on deck. And even in that series, Mariano Rivera was on the mound twice with a lead. And the crazy thing about that series (other than the collapse), was that the best Yankee pitcher was Esteban Loaiza. 2005 was crazy all around, and it still went the distance. You can still reference the comment threads in the archives.

      Any talent the Yanks gave up during that period was fungible and really didn’t have much of an impact on the organization.

    26. Raf
      February 20th, 2011 | 11:13 am

      ken wrote:

      Raf, How are you going to feel in the last years of his contract (ages 39-42) when he’s a 285 hitter and 20 HRs, a step slower at 3B and he is blocking the team’s ability to sign younger FA’s and/or bring up prospects

      A lot can happen between now and 2015. Let’s wait and see, shall we? Assuming he sticks around, he won’t block the team’s ability to sign younger FA’s. Any prospects, if they are worth their salt, the organization will find room for them. That’s the way it has been for as long as I can remember.

      Giambi. K Brown. R Johnson (we got lucky that personal circumstances compelled him to return to AZ).

      Those were hardly anchors. As per your criteria, who in the system was blocked, which FA’s did the Yanks pass because of their presence? Giambi was moved to DH, Brown played out his contract (and when he went down, he was replaced with Chacon). I guess we did get lucky with RJ; he blew out his back after 10 starts with the D-Backs. Given that his back was a problem in 2006 (remember the epidural before game 3?), it probably wasn’t much of a stretch to see that injury coming.

    27. ken
      February 20th, 2011 | 11:42 am

      Raf wrote:

      The patchwork rotation in 2004 was able to run out a 3-0 series lead with Mussina, Orlando Hernandez, Jon Lieber and Kevin Brown on deck

      Lieber and Brown: you just made my point. I had no doubt about these two lightweights giving the Yanks any chance to win the series coming back for games 6 and 7. They pitched scared. Deer-in-the-headlights for both of them.

      Raf wrote:

      Giambi was moved to DH

      $25M/yr for a DH who draws walks.

      Raf wrote:

      I guess we did get lucky with RJ; he blew out his back after 10 starts with the D-Backs.

      Forget his back. And forget his W/L record. Did he ever pitch well in a big game for NY?

    28. Raf
      February 20th, 2011 | 12:06 pm

      ken wrote:

      Lieber and Brown: you just made my point. I had no doubt about these two lightweights giving the Yanks any chance to win the series coming back for games 6 and 7. They pitched scared. Deer-in-the-headlights for both of them.

      Lieber had pitched as well as he had all season. Brown didn’t. Brown would’ve been in better shape had he not gone psycho and took on a wall in Baltimore.

      $25M/yr for a DH who draws walks.

      Yeah, so? Who did he block? Who did he prevent from being signed? Was he unproductive as a DH? In the 2 years that he was primarily a DH (06 & 07), he had a good year and a bad one. He bounced back with a good year in 2008, and left as a FA.

      Forget his back. And forget his W/L record. Did he ever pitch well in a big game for NY?

      In the 70 games that he pitched for the Yanks, I’m sure you can find a few in there. The only one that comes to mind for now is game 5, 2005 ALDS, after Mussina’s implosion. He had a ND in game 3, the team had come back to take the lead.

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