• Ian Kennedy, Cy Young Candidate

    Posted by on September 20th, 2011 · Comments (29)

    It’s true.

    It’s O.K.

    We kept Joba and Phil the Franchise.  That’s all that matters.

    Comments on Ian Kennedy, Cy Young Candidate

    1. clintfsu813
      September 20th, 2011 | 11:36 am

      Good for Ian. Though, I could see a similar story: “Arizona Diamondbacks pitcher, Ivan Nova, pitching in the shit that is the NL East, is a 2011 Cy Young Candidate.” Or how about, “New York Yankees pitcher Ian Kennedy finishes with only 8 wins in the tough AL East.”
      Dead Horse..beaten.

    2. EHawk
      September 20th, 2011 | 11:41 am

      But we got Granderson who could be the MVP this year. Do you think we’d be a better team with Kennedy in our rotation and Jackson in CF? If Kennedy was pitching in the AL East do you really think he’d be as effective…I bet he’d have more like 13-15 wins. Sure he’s had a better season then Joba and Hughes but they all have a long road so its too early to say who ends up with better careers. This was one of those rare trades that seems to of worked out good for all teams

    3. September 20th, 2011 | 11:57 am

      @ EHawk:
      Why does it have to be Grandy or Kennedy?

      Maybe the Yankees kept Kennedy, didn’t sign Burnett, played Gardner in CF and then used the Burnett money to sign a big bat for LF?

    4. Jim TreshFan
      September 20th, 2011 | 12:15 pm

      We unloaded an All Star caliber Left Fielder in the person of Melky Cabrera. Right now Cabrera could be playing LF for the Yankees, batting .302 with 192 hits, 96 Runs and 83 RBIs.

    5. Evan3457
      September 20th, 2011 | 12:16 pm

      After 2008, General Manager Steve Lombardi never wanted to see Ian Kennedy in a Yankee uniform again, and blasted the Yanks for making him a #1 pick compared to other #1 picks by other teams.

      Therefore, Yankee fan Steve Lombardi’s snark and criticism is…how can I put this…double-talk? Hypocrisy? Illogical, at the very least.

    6. Raf
      September 20th, 2011 | 12:25 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      That sentiment was expressed by a lot of people.

      Steve L. wrote:

      Maybe the Yankees kept Kennedy, didn’t sign Burnett, played Gardner in CF and then used the Burnett money to sign a big bat for LF?

      Maybe they still win it all in 2009? Maybe they have a best-er record in the AL in 2011?

      Signing Burnett doesn’t prevent the Yankees from signing anyone else.

      Kennedy fell out of favor for whatever reason. He was able to successfully return from aneurysm surgery. Good for him. Good for the Yanks that they got Granderson. Meanwhile, Austin Jackson…

    7. Raf
      September 20th, 2011 | 12:28 pm

      Jim TreshFan wrote:

      We unloaded an All Star caliber Left Fielder in the person of Melky Cabrera. Right now Cabrera could be playing LF for the Yankees, batting .302 with 192 hits, 96 Runs and 83 RBIs.

      Or he could’ve been run out of town after batting .255 with 117 hits, 50 runs and 42 RBI’s (the numbers he posted last year with the Braves)

    8. lordbyron
      September 20th, 2011 | 12:58 pm

      I watched Kennedy pitch last night and he was extremely impressive. His fastball seemed much livelier than I remembered when he was with the Yankees. And, his location was superb. It was fun to watch him, although I think he looked better in pinstripes.

    9. Evan3457
      September 20th, 2011 | 2:31 pm

      Raf wrote:

      @ Evan3457:
      That sentiment was expressed by a lot of people.

      Yes it certainly was.

      However, very few of them are using it as a stick to beat Cashman with, having themselves learned a lesson about judging a player too soon.

    10. Evan3457
      September 20th, 2011 | 2:33 pm

      Oh, and the jury is still out about Joba and Phil, though if the Yanks eventually give up on both of them, and trade or release them, and they come back to fulfill their early promise, or at least some of it, I’m sure the 20/20 hindsight crowd will be charging ahead on that front as well.

    11. Scout
      September 20th, 2011 | 4:06 pm

      Nothing wrong with a deal in which all teams involved give good value to get good value. I’ve never heard that the Tigers/D-backs were prepared to make the trade with some other pitcher besides Kennedy included. Granderson has given the Yanks more than they ever expected. All three teams make the post-season this year. I call that a win-win-win scenario.

    12. LMJ229
      September 20th, 2011 | 4:59 pm

      There’s nothing wrong with criticizing a GM for moves that don’t work or come back to haunt you as long as you give credit where credit is due. We traded away a Cy Yong candidate. That’s a demerit by most people’s standards, regardless of the league/division. We got an MVP candidate. That’s certainly credit worthy.

    13. LMJ229
      September 20th, 2011 | 5:01 pm

      Jim TreshFan wrote:

      We unloaded an All Star caliber Left Fielder in the person of Melky Cabrera. Right now Cabrera could be playing LF for the Yankees, batting .302 with 192 hits, 96 Runs and 83 RBIs.

      Now THIS is a deal that can surely be considered a huge bust, especially when you throw in Melky’s age and price tag.

    14. KPOcala
      September 20th, 2011 | 5:22 pm

      @ Steve L.: Steve, remember, at the time most of the “experts” said that Gardner would be lucky to be a 5th type outfielder.

    15. Raf
      September 20th, 2011 | 5:24 pm

      Problem with that is Brett Gardner > Melky Cabrera

    16. KPOcala
      September 20th, 2011 | 5:25 pm

      Steve, who would you like to see as the Yank’s GM? Even “The Harvard Boy Genius” is taking national flack for not having stockpiled 12 starting pitchers….

    17. Corey Italiano
      September 20th, 2011 | 5:27 pm

      Steve L. wrote:

      Maybe the Yankees kept Kennedy, didn’t sign Burnett, played Gardner in CF and then used the Burnett money to sign a big bat for LF?

      Like who? Werth? Crawford?

    18. Corey Italiano
      September 20th, 2011 | 5:30 pm

      Scout wrote:

      I call that a win-win-win scenario.

      And when it comes to trades, that’s rare.

    19. Evan3457
      September 20th, 2011 | 6:06 pm

      LMJ229 wrote:

      There’s nothing wrong with criticizing a GM for moves that don’t work or come back to haunt you as long as you give credit where credit is due. We traded away a Cy Yong candidate. That’s a demerit by most people’s standards, regardless of the league/division. We got an MVP candidate. That’s certainly credit worthy.

      The something wrong is criticizing a GM for trading away a player who is perceived by all as someone who has little value who later explodes into a major star, especially when all around didn’t want him back on the team (except me, ironically enough, when I said he’d make a good #4 or #5 starter for somebody; Kennedy’s exceeded by plenty the ceiling I’d set in my mind for him).

      In addition, the criticism of Cashman, but not Dombrowski? It was Dombrowski who traded for Kennedy and then turned right around and traded him and Jackson for Scherzer and Schlereth. Scherzer done OK, but wouldn’t you say Kennedy’s done better?

    20. Raf
      September 20th, 2011 | 6:13 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      Yeah, but Dombrowski unloaded Jackson and got similar performance from Scherzer for a fraction of the cost.

    21. Garcia
      September 20th, 2011 | 6:45 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      After 2008, General Manager Steve Lombardi never wanted to see Ian Kennedy in a Yankee uniform again, and blasted the Yanks for making him a #1 pick compared to other #1 picks by other teams.
      Therefore, Yankee fan Steve Lombardi’s snark and criticism is…how can I put this…double-talk? Hypocrisy? Illogical, at the very least.

      Yeah man, it’s crazy how when even the team is in first place, playing good baseball, and where the overall aggregated numbers say the Yanks pitching is in the top 1/3 in the majors, and top 3 in the AL; Steve has to show everyone that he’s no Yankee pollyanna. So he has to find something to point to and say, “they really effed up here”.

      I equate it to this: it’s like someone who is never happy with a significant person in their life, always looking to change/correct “flaws” that don’t fall in line with their “view” of perfection, and never really appreciates that person for what they are and what they do well. The Yanks always suck in Steve’s eyes, at least it seems that way.

      I sometimes wish this blog was around in 1998, I’m sure Steve would have found a lot of things not to like about that team either. There’s being a pollyanna and there’s being all doom-and-gloom, it’s like Steve goes out of his way to be the latter.

    22. JeremyM
      September 20th, 2011 | 6:47 pm

      Maybe I’m wrong, but I have a feeling that Melky wouldn’t have put up these numbers with the Yankees. There seemed to be some underlying issues there (possibly enjoying being a Yankee too much, I dunno) and it took him getting released by the Braves to apparently wake him up.

    23. Corey Italiano
      September 20th, 2011 | 7:29 pm

      @ JeremyM:
      I don’t see why not. If you recall, Melky used to play like Babe Ruth in April and he’s still young.

    24. Raf
      September 20th, 2011 | 8:29 pm

      JeremyM wrote:

      Maybe I’m wrong, but I have a feeling that Melky wouldn’t have put up these numbers with the Yankees. There seemed to be some underlying issues there (possibly enjoying being a Yankee too much, I dunno) and it took him getting released by the Braves to apparently wake him up.

      Yes, the word was that Cabrera showed up @ Royals camp in the best shape of his career. Perhaps getting cut by the braves was a wakeup call. Good for Melky.

    25. LMJ229
      September 20th, 2011 | 9:06 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      I don’t think there is anything wrong with judging a trade in hindsight. Really, what other way is there to judge a trade? All trades are based on anticipated future value. I’m sure all GMs look at their trades in hindsight and think “Well that one didn’t work out” or “that one sure did”. Just because alot of people thought Kennedy wouldn’t amount to anything doesn’t necessarily make it a good trade. If Cashman makes 100 trades that the experts deem to be terrible trades at the time but they all turn out to be great trades, we would certainly give him kudos for that. Why does it not go the other way around?

      And yes, Dombrowski certainly deserves his demerits too.

    26. Evan3457
      September 20th, 2011 | 11:01 pm

      Raf wrote:

      @ Evan3457:
      Yeah, but Dombrowski unloaded Jackson and got similar performance from Scherzer for a fraction of the cost.

      I know, but would Kennedy have been better…in that park…against that division? We’ll never know.

    27. KPOcala
      September 20th, 2011 | 11:03 pm

      The gist, as I see it, of “Ball Four” is that baseball is a game of eternally second guessing someone. “He should/shouldn’t have pulled the pitcher, he never should have thrown a 3-1 curve, why din’t he throw a curve on 3-1. To be objective, how many players in Cashmans’ tenure that were traded went on to have strong careers? Kennedy way to young, A-Jax great glove, a lot of holes in the swing, and still to young to make the call. He’s traded some good last third of a roster (Yankee roster, that is) but he hasn’t so far given up Koufax, Mays, or Maddux. His trades for Jeff Weaver and Vasquez were acclaimed at the time, and people Yankee fans welcomed The Unit and Kevin Brown aboard with great enthusiasm at the time. Cashman got Igawa (probably at the “request” of The Boss, but he was a lot cheaper than Dice-K. I’m sure I’m forgetting a few faces, but if you disagree w/ my logic, please, I welcome the retort….

    28. Evan3457
      September 20th, 2011 | 11:13 pm

      LMJ229 wrote:

      @ Evan3457:
      I don’t think there is anything wrong with judging a trade in hindsight. Really, what other way is there to judge a trade? All trades are based on anticipated future value. I’m sure all GMs look at their trades in hindsight and think “Well that one didn’t work out” or “that one sure did”. Just because alot of people thought Kennedy wouldn’t amount to anything doesn’t necessarily make it a good trade. If Cashman makes 100 trades that the experts deem to be terrible trades at the time but they all turn out to be great trades, we would certainly give him kudos for that. Why does it not go the other way around?
      And yes, Dombrowski certainly deserves his demerits too.

      See, here’s where I disagree. Maybe playing and owning several fantasy league teams and making trades that have worked out as planned, and others that have blown up in my face despite no apparent flaw in the strategy at the time they were made colors my view of these things.

      You see, LMJ, the way I look at trades is to ask a series of questions…things like:

      1. Does the trade shore up a weakness, augment a strength, take advantage of an opportunity or remedy a threat? Or does it have no apparent reason for being?

      2. Is it the best move that can be made at the time for roughly equivalent cost?

      3. Does the trade have any obvious glaring weakness that can be seen to stand an excellent chance of causing a disastrous outcome in the long run?

      4. Is there an alternative move (waiver, callup, move a player off the bench or out of the pen) that has a reasonable chance of being just as effective?

      5. Does the trade, all things considered, seem a reasonable exchange of value at the time it was made? Or, if an obvious trade of future for now, is the future price worth the present gain?

      If the answers are YES, YES, NO, NO, and YES, or at least those answers on 3 or 4 out of those 5, then I see no reason not to make the trade, and if it doesn’t work, then it doesn’t work. It is very possible to make a trade that, from all angles, is reasonable and should work, and have it blow up completely into a disaster.

      And once that’s been decided, then what happens in hindsight is interesting only if there’s some information unknown at the time that turns up later on that can be used for the future to try avoid such disasters. But judging a trade in hindsight, or judging the thought process in hindsight is only valid if the thought process that made the traded is deficient, and that’s what those questions above are designed to avoid.

    29. LMJ229
      September 21st, 2011 | 6:44 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      Your thought process is certainly logical and defensible and designed to minimize failure but I still believe that all trades are ultimately valued by their end results.

      For the record, I wasn’t a big Ian Kennedy fan either and I didn’t think his make-up would translate into a successful career in NY. But if Kennedy goes on to be a perennial All-Star and Cy Young candidate then our trading him was a big mistake.

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