Phil Hughes & Michael Pineda To Stand Out On Cashman’s Resume
Posted by Steve L. on April 26th, 2012 · Comments (56)
On February 1, 1999, Brian Cashman traded Mike Lowell to the Florida Marlins for Todd Noel, Mark Johnson and Ed Yarnall. Now, it looks like the Jesus Montero for Michael Pineda deal will be just as “good” as that one for the New York Yankees.
And, Phil Hughes? He’s been Cashman’s pet since he was drafted by the Yankees. He would not trade him for Johan Santana or Doc Halladay. And, now, how has that worked out?
Cashman’s resume has a lot of terrible pitching moves on it: Jeff Weaver, Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa, A.J. Burnett, Jose Contreras, Javy Vazquez, Chan Ho Park, Pedro Feliciano, Damaso Marte, Gabe White, Felix Heredia, Denny Neagle…
But, Hughes and Pineda are going to have a special place on Cashman’s resume, for sure.
And, of course, you are forgetting about the immortal Steve Karsay.
@ jonm: I only listed a few that came to mind early this AM. But, for sure, my list is not all inclusive. There are several more bad pitching moves on Cashman’s resume in addition to what I have listed.
They’ll be on his resume—at the bottom in small print. I think the four(4) World Championships will be at the top in big, bold lettering.
Jim TreshFan wrote:
That would be like Art Levinson putting down on his resume that he was responsible for Apple being the largest publicly traded company in the world by market capitalization.
The first three of those four (98-00) were the result of the cadre left behind by Michael/Watson. And, the fourth one was the result of the Steinbrenner Family Checkbook (Sabathia & Texiera) and Dr. Anthony Galea (A-Rod’s HGH fueled post-season heroics).
I haven’t seen Levinson’s resume, but I bet your paycheck against mine it has all that Apple stuff on it.
The World Championsips happened on Cashman’s watch, so he gets the credit.
Jim TreshFan wrote:
O.K.
So, does he also get the “credit” for 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2011? Those $200 million dollar teams that spit the bit in the post-season or, in the case of 2008, missed the post-season.
It looks like Jose Campos might end up being the better player and possible Ace they were looking for at this point. Right now it seems like a bust but lets wait and see what happens before passing judgement on Cashman as of now. I agree He should I traded Hughes when he had a chance for Halladay but if we made that Santana trade and Santana goes down like he did for Mets then you’d of been saying how bad a trade it was for sure.
I’ve soured on Cashman, but, in trying to assess whether that emotional response is correct, I am trying to think of his great successes.
Here’s what I came up with off the top of my head:
Signing El Duque as an international free agent.
Signing Alfonso Soriano as an international free agent.
Acquiring David Justice from the Indians (that one probably won the WS for the Yanks in 2000, but it did cost Westbrook, who has been a decent major league starter some years).
Acquiring Glenallen Hill in 2000 (also great contributor to WS win in 2000, but tainted by obvious steroid usage)
Acquiring Shawn Chacon and Aaron Small in 2005 (these seem more like luck than anything else).
Signing Sabathia(big money, but sometimes spending doesn’t work)
Acquiring Nick Swisher from the White Sox.
Signing Russell Martin
Good performance from some mid-relievers acquired for nothing (Aceves, Ayala, Wade)
There are some good moments there, but I bet that they would be outweighed by the bad.
Signing Colon and Garcia last year.
Steve L. wrote:
The same cadre of players that sandwiched a world championship (1996) with two first round exits (1995 & 97).
Michael and Watson were just as astute with the Steinbrenner Family Checkbook, as I remember that Key, Cone, Rogers, Gooden, Strawberry, Boggs, etc, etc, etc were signed as free agents
Casman looked pretty smart when Santana went down. And who has the Ring of Foreknowledge when it comes to pitchers prediction. Halladay’s arm could have come apart the same as Santana. And if either of those trades had gone down and the acquired pitcher had an physical or emotional breakdown, Cashman would have gotten a pass here? Come on, this is silly. Steve must be second in line for Cashman’s job
I don’t get why so many Yankee fans try to “look on the bright side” when it comes to Brian Cashman’s many missteps, most notably this debacle. Trying to justify it is like going through a mound of excrement to find a pony. No, there is not a pony in there somewhere!
@ EHawk:
Last time I checked, Campos was in Class A. Lots of people are touted highly in the minors. Remember Andrew Brackman? How’s he doing for the Yanks? Oh, that’s right, he got released.
If you can’t pass judgment when your GM gives up your future All-Star slugger for a heap of nothing, when can you pass judgment?
lisaswan wrote:
You can pass judgement any time you like – it’s a free country. But the deal was a good deal, recognizing the risk involved with pitching. This one is sour for us because of an injury. But what happens if Montero goes down for the season with an injury? Is the trade now even???
I’d prefer to only pass judgement when the organization is a mess, and the team misses the playoffs repeatedly. See Boston, 2012. We’re in a good position to do well this year, make the playoffs and hopefully advance to the WS. That’s all you can judge a GM on, IMHO.
@ Greg H.: No, I’m gonna judge a GM on when his trade of the organization’s No.1 prospect goes awry. You’d better believe he ought to be judged over that. (He certainly got the praise when the trade first happened, didn’t he?)
I was against this trade from the beginning. I don’t trust Cashman’s judgment, and he rarely gets the best in trades. I wondered why Seattle would give up on a young pitcher if he was so great as touted. And Will Carroll, injury expert for Sports Illustrated wrote in February that Pineda was a huge injury risk. He later made suggestions so that Pineda wouldn’t end up with a torn labrum. This was foreseeable.
Jim TreshFan wrote:
That is so unfair. Cashman became the GM in February (FEBRUARY!) of 1998 when Bob Watson left abruptly because he couldn’t take George anymore. George appointed a very young and green Cashman as GM to be both his lap dog and whipping boy. At that time, Cashman was nothing more than a figurehead – George and his Tampa team were running the show. When Cashman took over the 1998 roster was already established. Now compare the 1998 roster to 1999 and 2000 and tell me where the significant changes were. Actually, Cashman deserves credit for NOT changing the roster but he doesn’t deserve credit for creating it.
Most Cashman supporters would point out, rightly so, that Cashman does not deserve any blame for the lack of player development over his first 5 years as GM since he was not the one running the show. However, these same supporters are more than willing to give Cashman credit for the 3 championship rings he attained during that same time frame. Well, you can’t have it both ways.
jonm wrote:
You forgot Granderson. Nevertheless, an excellent objective post. I would agree with the point above wholeheartedly.
Raf wrote:
Yes and much more successful.
Pineda did have a lousy 2nd half, so there was reason for concern. On the other hand, Montero is a lousy catcher. Because the Yanks are dealing w/ age issues, they don’t need an every day DH. On paper the trade looks OK – except for Pineda’s 2nd half.
Cashman had his shot at trading Hughes and Chamberlin and never took it. If it was me, I would’ve taken it w/ Hughes. I thought Chamberlin was Mo’s successor…what do I know?
@ lisaswan:
Amen sister! I agree with everything you said.
Why are the Yankees trading their most valuable blue chip prospect – one of the best prospects to come along in a decade – for a “risk” player? This is the Yankees for God’s sake! This isn’t the Royals or the Rays who have to go with young players who work within their tight budget. They should have gotten a proven commodity like King Felix. And, mark my words, King Felix will be traded before the season is over and the Yankees will not be able to get him because they won’t have the prospects to do so.
I can’t wait for the Yanks to trade Hughes for 5 cents on the dollar…and watch him develop into a competent starter someplace else.
Then everyone can blame Cashman twice, coming and going…
…as they did with Lilly/Weaver/Brown
…and with Contreras/Loaiza
…and with Kennedy…
…and soon, with AJ Burnet.
lisaswan wrote:
OK, then, they shoulda traded Montero for a solid, veteran #3 starter.
Because they were never getting Felix for Montero. Or Kershaw. Or Lee (they had to throw in 2 other pieces to even get that trade to the Brink). The Jays turned down Halladay for Montero. And on and on and on…
And I believe that Montero is going to be a big-time hitter, probably by 2014 at the latest.
lisaswan wrote:
Bobby Abreu, Cory Lidle, Marte (he was shutdown in the 2009 postseason, and I don’t think we win without him), Swisher, Logan (Arodys has TJ surgery, mike dunn has given up 4 runs this year with 4 walks in 4.1 innigs. Logan has been useful), Chacon, A-Rod (his first deal would have been perfect had it been allowed to finish), Granderson..etc…
LMJ229 wrote:
Cashman was the assistant GM from 95-97. Do you seriously not think he had nothing to do with the 1998 roster construction? Do you have inside knowledge that he was just a errand boy before 1998?
LMJ229 wrote:
Like who? The Mariners are not interested in trading King Felix. I wish everyone would stop saying things like this.
@ LMJ229:
“Why are the Yankees trading their most valuable blue chip prospect – one of the best prospects to come along in a decade – for a “risk” player? This is the Yankees for God’s sake! This isn’t the Royals or the Rays who have to go with young players who work within their tight budget.”
Didn’t you get the memo?
This trade is not a bust because the Yanks got Campos. Because that’s what the Yanks do now — trade their best young player for somebody (Campos) who might be good five years down the road. You know, like the Rays and Royals.
@ Evan3457:
How about they don’t trade him at all? How about they use him at DH and have him catch CC, the way the Mariners are doing with Montero and King Felix?
@ Corey Italiano:
Logan? The trade that brought Javy Vazquez Part Deux? Yeah, that was successful!
@ Corey Italiano:
“Cashman was the assistant GM from 95-97. Do you seriously not think he had nothing to do with the 1998 roster construction? Do you have inside knowledge that he was just a errand boy before 1998?”
Which one is it? Cashman and his minions tell over and over about how he didn’t have control of the team, including roster construction, WHEN HE WAS THE GM until 2005. Now you’re suggesting that he was involved with roster construction before 1998? Really?
I guess we ought to just keep it simple — everything good that has happened to the Yanks from 1996 is all Cashman. Everything bad? It’s the evil Tampa people. Or the Steinbrenners. Or those meddling Scooby-Doo kids. Good grief.
LMJ229 wrote:
Mike Witt? Brien Taylor? Spike Owen? Mike Gallego? Tony Fernandez? Tim Leary? Neal Heaton?
Right
lisaswan wrote:
Probably because the Yankees have been more successful than not. Few world series titles, making the playoffs every year except one… How many other GM’s have put together the run that Cashman has?
lisaswan wrote:
Pedro Martinez was 22 when he was traded. Johan Santana went from the Astros to the Marlins to the Twins in the Rule v draft, he was 21 when he appeared for the Twins. Matt Latos spent 3 seasons with the Padres and was traded at 23. David Cone? 24. Jose Rijo, 20. Doug Drabek was in his 3rd organization by the time he was 24.
Teams make trades for any number of reasons.
lisaswan wrote:
So if that’s the case, then how can we give all the praise to Stick Michael and Watson?
We’ve all done this song and dance too many times. I’m done with this thread, I don’t have the energy for this topic anymore.
LMJ229 wrote:
I don’t blame Cashman for player development as the Yankees as an organization usually doesn’t go with young players. Been that way for a long time. Derek Jeter got a shot because Tony Fernandez went down (and they didn’t trade Rivera for Felix Fermin)… Before Jeter, there was Mattingly (came up for good in ’84), and before Mattingly, was Guidry (came up for good in ’76)
lisaswan wrote:
You new to the Yankees? Montero wasn’t going to get a shot in NY. Posada was done by May and Montero didn’t get the call then. He also didn’t start over Cervelli, and his overrated defensive rep. Add that to Girardi’s asinine insistence on “resting players” and there’s no way Montero would’ve gotten a full time role in NY. It’s a shame, but that’s the way the organization works, or else they would’ve given 3b to Mike Lowell all those years ago.
@ Raf:
“How many other GM’s have put together the run that Cashman has?”
How many other GMs have the payroll that Cashman has?
Corey Italiano wrote:
And no one mentions Harding Peterson; the Yankees acquired Pettitte (1990 draft and follow), Jorge Posada (1990 draft) and Mariano Rivera (Int’l FA) under his watch.
lisaswan wrote:
Jeter, Posada, Mo, et al, don’t come cheap. Or would you rather that Cashman let them walk to prove a point? That’s just silly 8)
But the Dodgers, O’s, Red Sox, the Mets and others have spent money with less than desireable results.
David Cone from the Jays? Salary dump. Tino Martinez & Jeff Nelson from the M’s? Salary dump. Cecil Fielder from the Tigers? Salary dump. Roger Clemens from the Jays? Salary dump. Terry Mulholland from the Phils? Salary dump. That’s the good thing about the Yankees, they can afford to pay their players.
@ Raf:
Cashman has one tool in the toolkit — the ability to spend lots of money. That’s about it. And no other team in the last decade has had the ability to spend $200+ million each year, that the Yankees do. Do you think another GM, maybe somebody a little more savvy, might have been able to do more with it? I sure do.
@ Raf:
“You new to the Yankees? ”
Spare me the condescension, dude. Who died and made you the baseball god?
“Montero wasn’t going to get a shot in NY. Posada was done by May and Montero didn’t get the call then. He also didn’t start over Cervelli, and his overrated defensive rep. Add that to Girardi’s asinine insistence on “resting players” and there’s no way Montero would’ve gotten a full time role in NY. It’s a shame, but that’s the way the organization works, or else they would’ve given 3b to Mike Lowell all those years ago.
”
Really? Then how did Robinson Cano get a chance? Brett Gardner? Melky Cabrera? I must have must dreamed about them. Hmmm, you knew to the Yankees, dude?
lisaswan wrote:
Right. To say nothing about the Swisher, Granderson, Justice, etc, etc, etc, trades…
And again, Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Rodriguez & co don’t come cheap. And the Yankees are going to spend on stars, because that’s who people pay to see.
A savvier GM might be able to do more than have the best record in baseball or in the AL?
A savvier GM still makes the Pineda trade. A savvy GM makes both Vazquez trades. A savvy GM makes plays for Contreras, Igawa, Wang, & El Duque. A savvy GM signs Sabathia and Clemens and Mussina. But I’m sure you knew that already
lisaswan wrote:
I did, didn’t you get the memo? How long have you been watching, how often have the Yankees gone with an “untested rookie” over a “proven veteran,” and how many of those untested rookies have had staying power?
Spare me the hysterics.
@ Raf:
Swisher was a salary dump. So was Justice. The Yanks also got Granderson because of salary, and giving up three great players. Why is this so hard to understand?
And this: “A savvier GM still makes the Pineda trade.”
No, the savvy GM has a great young hitter, and a starter in his rotation. Instead of the pitcher in the Carl Pavano memorial MRI Tube. That would be Seattle’s GM. Not Cashman.
“A savvy GM makes both Vazquez trades.”
The first one, yes. The second one, no. It was a disaster to bring Vazquez back.
“A savvy GM makes plays for Contreras, Igawa, Wang, & El Duque. A savvy GM signs Sabathia and Clemens and Mussina. But I’m sure you knew that already.”
So, basically, you are confirming my point about Cashman — that the successful deals he makes, 99% of the time, involve money. Thanks! I win!
@ Raf:
“I did, didn’t you get the memo? How long have you been watching, how often have the Yankees gone with an “untested rookie” over a “proven veteran,” and how many of those untested rookies have had staying power?
Spare me the hysterics.”
Spare me the attitude. Your point is incorrect. Get over it.
lisaswan wrote:
Robinson Cano? Got the job when Tony Womack played like, well, Tony Womack. No shortage of Yankee attempts to trade Cano either.
Brett Gardner? Didn’t become a full time starter until 2010, 3rd season in the bigs.
Melky? As soon as Matsui got healthy in 2006, Cabrera rode the bench. LF was blocked, Damon was in CF, and Abreu was in RF.
lisaswan wrote:
Weaver was a salary dump too. So are we dinging trades because of salary that goes back and forth? How convenient
Nice try playing both sides of the fence in Granderson
You do know Pineda passed his physical, right? He didn’t have nearly the injury history that Pavano had. The same Carl Pavano that has tossed 600+ innings the past 3 years
Hindsight is 20/20, again, any savvy GM makes that trade. The Yanks aren’t hurting for offense.
Why, because of the “can’t play in NY” fallacy? C’mon now. Vazquez got shelled with the Marlins, he couldn’t handle the bright lights of Miami?
Since MLB players don’t play for free, sure, deals involve money.
lisaswan wrote:
Get over yourself, and read up on baseball. Don’t let your Cashman “hate” blind your objectivity :p
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/yankees-land-michael-pineda-dont-pay-retail/
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/a-quick-note-on-michael-pinedas-splits/
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/michael-pinedas-reduced-velocity/
@ Evan3457: Amen, Evan….and I’m sure that other rabid fans of every team in baseball isn’t having their own gripe about “idiot GM moves”….
Great piece related to this: http://tinyurl.com/bv2oz4c
OK, I’m gonna throw a question out to the masses. I was listening to Francesa the other day and he was talking about the Yankees and expectations. His take was this: with all of the resources the Yankees have, he believes the Yankees should be expected to make the playoffs 9 times out of 10. They should be able to go to the world series 4 times in 10 and win it all 2 times in 10. With their resources, anything less than that could be considered a failure. Personally, I tend to agree with his math.
I’m not a Cashman fan but I’m trying to judge him as objectively as I can. So if winning a championship is the ultimate goal, then that is what he should be judged on. The team has not met these standards the last 10 years.
Your thoughts?
Corey Italiano wrote:
You might want to read this article. It will shed alot of light on Cashman’s early years: http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/sports/features/9611/index1.html
LMJ229 wrote:
I’ve heard Mike make this case before. My thoughts?
Assume that it is just a 50-50 shot in the post-season. This means for every four years you make the play-offs, you should reach the WS once. And, then, if you make the playoffs 8 times, then you should reach the WS twice and win one ring. But, that’s if you assume it’s just a 50-50 chance.
I think it’s fair to bump that up to two rings in ten seasons. And, make it three times to the WS in a ten year period – for a team with the resources like the Yankees. I mean, seriously, they can double the payroll, just about, of most teams in the league.
But, I take it a step further. What really burns me is all the one round and out “failures” of the Yankees under Cashman. This team was been bounced in the ALDS more times than it should since 2002. Why? Crappy pitching or batters who turn into pumpkins in the post-season after fattening up in the regular season on bad teams.
The Yankees of 1996-2001 had players, pitchers and hitters, who played well in the post-season. For some reason, Cashman can’t find the same kind of players that Michael and Watson found – esp. in the pitching department.
Of course, this all gets masked in the regular season when the Yankees batters just beat the stuffing out of crap pitchers and roll up 95 wins each season.
In any event, it won’t go on forever. Eventually, one way or another, Cashman will go away. It may take a few years. Or, it may take another ten years. But, he cannot last forever. I just hope it’s sooner rather than later.
@ LMJ229:
Hey, we have been here before!
http://waswatching.com/2011/10/09/new-yankees-m-o-beat-up-on-the-weak-make-playoffs-make-money-fall-short-of-a-ring/comment-page-1/#comment-359671
Evan3457 wrote:
I’m not sure why anyone would want to blame Cashman for the “going” of the players mentioned. I, for one, wouldn’t want any of them back, especially Burnett.
I am very disappointed in Phil Hughes so far this year. I thought he would have a good year for us. I’m not willing to give up on him just yet but, let’s face it, he certainly has not lived up to his expectations and we really can’t keep going to him if he keeps this up. Right now, he is not even a decent #4. At some point the Yankees will have to make a decision on him if he keeps going like this.
Steve L. wrote:
LOL! So much for my memory, thanks!
Steve L. wrote:
Raf wrote:
8):P