• Yanks Brass Losing Faith In Cashman?

    Posted by on July 27th, 2013 · Comments (64)

    Via Joel Sherman -

    Alfonso became the second straight Soriano that Brian Cashman advised Yankees ownership not to acquire — and was overruled on nevertheless.

    Just as with the signing of free agent Rafael Soriano, the general manager believed Yankees assets could be spent better than on Alfonso Soriano, two executives not affiliated with the Yankees told The Post.

    Cashman would not directly confirm what he advised Hal Steinbrenner, but told The Post: “I would say we are in a desperate time. Ownership wants to go for it. I didn’t want to give up a young arm [Corey Black]. But I understand the desperate need we have for offense. And Soriano will help us. The bottom line is this guy makes us better. Did ownership want him? Absolutely, yes. Does he make us better? Absolutely, yes. This is what Hal wants, and this is why we are doing it.”

    In a press briefing yesterday to announce Soriano’s acquisition, Cashman never directly spoke of his vote against the trade. But when it came to future possible deals to help this year’s club, he said a few times he does not like to give up prospects and he “might need ownership’s help” to convince him to finalize such a trade.

    Cashman became GM in 1998, but took on greater authority in 2005 when an ailing George Steinbrenner agreed to draw a more structured flow chart of how baseball decisions would be made. Still, since then, there have been times when Cashman has been overruled.

    If Cashman had a spine and any belief that he could GM another club without the benefit of the Steinbrenner Family Checkbook, wouldn’t he quit at this point?

    Comments on Yanks Brass Losing Faith In Cashman?

    1. Scout
      July 27th, 2013 | 9:32 am

      So Cashman believes deeply in keeping his prospects. How nice. The same prospects who flame out once they reach double A. The same prospects who, when given the chance due to injuries, flame out. The deals ownership wants may be driven by panic (A. Soriano) and by a misguided belief that over-the-hill stars bring in fans (Ichiro), but Cashman’s record in player development is hardly one to be proud of. I’m all for building from within for long-term success, but that works only when you know how to find and develop talent. I’ve yet to see evidence that Cashman and his people have that ability.

    2. July 27th, 2013 | 9:55 am

      Scout wrote:

      So Cashman believes deeply in keeping his prospects. How nice

      He didn’t seem to care about keeping Zach McAllister and Tyler Clippard, who he gave away for nothing.

      Cashman’s track record regarding making judgment calls on pitching, period, is terrible. It’s laughable. Sure, he makes the right call on Sabathia and Mussina. A 9-year old would know to sign those guys. But, outside of the obvious moves, he’s a joke. The Yankees brass should know it too – even if they don’t want to call him on it. If I owned the team, and, for some reason, kept Cashman around, if he ever talked to me about his wanting to keep a pitching prospect, I would pull out his report card on pitching and tell him to go get me a coffee and a donut. The guy shouldn’t pretend to know anything about pitching.

    3. Raf
      July 27th, 2013 | 10:25 am

      Steve L. wrote:

      But, outside of the obvious moves, he’s a joke

      Which moves weren’t obvious?

      The Yanks have two “Zach McAllisters” in Ivan Nova and David Phelps. They dealt another in Hector Noesi. Clippard didn’t do much for the Nats until he was moved to the bullpen in 2009. The Yanks have enough relievers.

      The guy shouldn’t pretend to know anything about pitching.

      The 2013 Yankees are 2nd in R/G (behind Oakland), 4th in ERA (behind Oakland, KC & Texas) :P

    4. Garcia
      July 27th, 2013 | 10:45 am

      Raf wrote:

      The 2013 Yankees are 2nd in R/G (behind Oakland), 4th in ERA (behind Oakland, KC & Texas)

      I’m waiting for August 1st to arrive, I remember back in March Steve saying that the Yanks would not be in the AL top 5 in pitching.

    5. Tuttle
      July 27th, 2013 | 12:02 pm

      Garcia wrote:

      I’m waiting for August 1st to arrive, I remember back in March Steve saying that the Yanks would not be in the AL top 5 in pitching.

      How about November 1st?

      Steve is looking right on CC Sabathia (a lot of innings in the left arm); no one could have predicted a season worthy of Cy Young consideration of Hiroki Kuroda; some were right if I recall correctly on the number of starts by Ivan Nova; and a lot thought Andy Pettitte would spend more time on the DL.

      CC might not be a top starter much longer and isn’t looking like a top starter at this point, Hiro is a FA, and Andy will retire. Nova’s inconsistent and has questionable makeup. I wouldn’t feel great about the pitching

    6. Evan3457
      July 27th, 2013 | 12:46 pm

      Cashman’s probably right about Soriano not helping the Yankees much. As I said a couple of days ago, he’s a small improvement. Will Chase Black become a top-rank reliever? I don’t know. But he does throw upper 90′s, so he has a chance. Even so, he might’ve been used in a deal for a better player, even if the Yankees didn’t keep him.

      Zach McAlister is very likely a strand-rate driven fluke, by the way. His K rate is so-so, his BB rate is below average, he’s allowing more than a hit an inning. His xFIP is more than a run higher than his actual ERA, and even his WPA is below 0.
      ========================================

      Alfonso became the second straight Soriano that Brian Cashman advised Yankees ownership not to acquire — and was overruled on nevertheless.

      Just as with the signing of free agent Rafael Soriano, the general manager believed Yankees assets could be spent better than on Alfonso Soriano, two executives not affiliated with the Yankees told The Post.

      That’s funny, I thought Cashman had “autonomy”. I guess autononmy isn’t as autonmous as it used to be before the term was applied to Cashman.
      =====================================

      If Cashman had a spine and any belief that he could GM another club without the benefit of the Steinbrenner Family Checkbook, wouldn’t he quit at this point?

      Because he likes the job, and the pay is pretty good, from what I understand.

    7. Kamieniecki
      July 27th, 2013 | 1:23 pm

      Maybe Cashman should be running for NYC mayor, and Anthony Weiner should be running the Yankees.

    8. KPOcala
      July 27th, 2013 | 2:08 pm

      Steve, shame on you for cherry-picking: For example, he recommended the Yankees not re-sign Alex Rodriguez when the third baseman opted out of his contract following the 2007 campaign. He was quite public after the 2010 season in his belief the Yankees should not sign Rafael Soriano.

      Last offseason, he advised ownership to re-sign Russell Martin and ink free agent Nate Schierholtz, and was against the re-signing of Ichiro Suzuki. Multiple sources have told me Martin was willing to return to the Yankees on a one-year contract. The sources said Martin shopped himself to other big-market clubs such as the Cubs for one year because he was hesitant to go to the Pirates, who offered him two years.

      I think even the most virulent of Cashman’s detractors would have to concede that GMs do as they’re told. And would anyone disagree that ownerships’ moves have hogtied Cashman to a huge spiderweb of outcomes not in Cashmans’ hands? And don’t all GMs work within the same guidelines set by their bosses (Peter Angelos, for one)? There is no question, but that unless maybe ten players from the minors develop by ’15, and/or some great free agent pickups, and/or a few miracle trades, this team is doomed to pick near the top of the draft for five years. But, stranger things happen. Of course, for those fixated on the notion of drafts, this could be the start of a “Golden Era”. Too bad Hank & Levine weren’t hogtied years back…..

    9. KPOcala
      July 27th, 2013 | 2:10 pm

      Sorry for the above, I forgot to mention and insert quotation marks from Sherman’s column. They should have gone after the colon, and ended after the second paragraph. DOH!!!

    10. KPOcala
      July 27th, 2013 | 3:27 pm

      Funny, Austin Jackson’s current WAR, 2.1, Ichiro’s 2.0. How, I can’t fathom, but it looks as though the A-Jax hand-wringing was a bit premature. But, nobody let that spoil a good narrative about Cashman’s acumen. Hell, Keith Law ripped A-Jax, until he got traded, then he becomes the next Willie McGee….

    11. Tuttle
      July 27th, 2013 | 3:33 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      I think even the most virulent of Cashman’s detractors would have to concede that GMs do as they’re told.

      Then why have a GM?

      I wouldn’t call him hogtied with the amount of money he’s had to work with: a lot of teams would’ve liked to have been hogtied with Mike Mussina, CC Sabathia, Mark Teixeira, etc. The Rafael Soriano and Ichiro Suzuki signings forced down Cashman’s throat worked out pretty well.

      Cashman said he was signing 1 player at a time to see how much budget he had to work with from 1 to the next, which is why Raul Ibanez and Russell Martin got away – but that’s still a $234.3 million budget, or a $206.3 million budget even without ARod.

      If ownership’s giving a GM a 3rd baseman with decent numbers and another $206.3 million to work with, its hard to see how he’s hogtied. I’d imagine a lot of GMs would scoff at the notion.

    12. July 27th, 2013 | 4:51 pm

      @ KPOcala:
      Right, Cashman was really “for” signing Martin. Funny how we never heard that until now. I say this NYPost piece is revisionist history. Especially the Schierholtz stuff.

      At any rate, no GM has 100% autonomy. But Cashman is the only one who throws a public snit fit when he doesn’t get his way. And BTW, he was wrong on the first Soriano — signing him was good contingency planning, something Cashman does not do enough of.

    13. Evan3457
      July 27th, 2013 | 7:28 pm

      lisaswan wrote:

      @ KPOcala:
      Right, Cashman was really “for” signing Martin. Funny how we never heard that until now. I say this NYPost piece is revisionist history. Especially the Schierholtz stuff.

      Take that up with Heyman/Sherman the next time you see them.
      We’re just repeating what they’re reporting.

      Is the source Cashman? Prove it.

    14. Evan3457
      July 27th, 2013 | 7:30 pm

      lisaswan wrote:

      And BTW, he was wrong on the first Soriano — signing him was good contingency planning, something Cashman does not do enough of.

      No, he wasn’t. It was a waste of money, as the Rays prove every time they pick a new closer off the scrap heap. Contingency planning…you mean Levine planned on Mariano tearing up his knee shagging flies.

      Excellent planning. Maybe he can give me the winning Powerball numbers now.

    15. July 27th, 2013 | 7:58 pm

      Garcia wrote:

      I’m waiting for August 1st to arrive, I remember back in March Steve saying that the Yanks would not be in the AL top 5 in pitching.

      Dude. Look at the Yankees pitching. The team ERA is all Kuroda and the bullpen. Nova a little too. Take out the bullpen and Kuroda and then look at the team ERA. And, IIRC, that was my point this Spring…Cashman kept crowing about how the SP rotation was a strength of the team and rock solid. My point was that CC was coming off surgery and a concern, Pettitte and Kuroda where old, and Hughes was, as always, overrated.

      How was I wrong?

    16. Raf
      July 27th, 2013 | 8:27 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      @ lisaswan:

      Perfect example would be 2012 where several closers went down that year, and they were all replaced.
      http://waswatching.com/2012/05/04/is-2012-the-season-of-the-injured-closer/

      As for Martin;
      http://bombersbeat.mlblogs.com/2012/11/30/cashman-yankees-sorry-to-see-martin-pick-pirates/

      FWIW, articles after Martin signed with the Pirates all pretty much say the same thing, that the Yankees wanted Martin back. I can see why Martin would take a guaranteed offer from the Pirates instead of waiting around to see if the Yanks would offer him a contract.

    17. July 27th, 2013 | 11:00 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Take that up with Heyman/Sherman the next time you see them.
      We’re just repeating what they’re reporting.
      Is the source Cashman? Prove it.

      Are you that naive? Of course the source is Cashman. The article is a puff piece in his favor.

    18. KPOcala
      July 27th, 2013 | 11:06 pm

      @ Tuttle:
      “Then why have a GM?” Simple, most very,very rich men have more things to think about than a baseball club, and it’s day to day operations.

      As to these budgets, that you’re throwing up at Cashman: Did he want A-Rod, R.Soriano, Sheffield (v Guerrero), Ichiro, Clemens, Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, Jeff Weaver, et al? Maybe you’re not old enough for the whole narrative, maybe you are, but there are a hell of alot of nasty politics that go on in big organizations. To sit, at this point at point the finger at Cashman is your prerogative, but your first sentence gave you away.

    19. July 27th, 2013 | 11:06 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      No, he wasn’t. It was a waste of money, as the Rays prove every time they pick a new closer off the scrap heap. Contingency planning…you mean Levine planned on Mariano tearing up his knee shagging flies.
      Excellent planning. Maybe he can give me the winning Powerball numbers now.

      Yeah, it’s shocking to think that there might be a chance that a 42-year-old could be injured. Apparently, as long as you’re part of the core, you will never get injured, and you can play forever, no matter how old you are. You know, kind of like the way Derek Jeter stayed healthy…oh wait.

      And using your logic, since a closer is a closer is a closer, the Yanks can just pick somebody off the scrap heap and he will be just as good as Mariano Rivera. Right?

      And funny you should say about the scrap heap. Kyle Farnsworth says hi, and that he still stinks, even in a Rays uniform.

    20. KPOcala
      July 27th, 2013 | 11:09 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      Thanks for saving me some furious typing, typing in response to someone that is clueless. ;)

    21. July 27th, 2013 | 11:10 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      As to these budgets, that you’re throwing up at Cashman: Did he want A-Rod, R.Soriano, Sheffield (v Guerrero), Ichiro, Clemens, Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, Jeff Weaver, et al? Maybe you’re not old enough for the whole narrative, maybe you are, but there are a hell of alot of nasty politics that go on in big organizations. To sit, at this point at point the finger at Cashman is your prerogative, but your first sentence gave you away.

      I get it — every good deal is Cashman’s, every bad deal is “some other dude did it.” By the way, Cashman traded for A-Rod, traded for Clemens, then re-signed Clemens himself, traded for Ichiro, traded for Weaver, then bragged to New York Magazine about trading Weaver for Kevin Brown, etc, etc. But you keep on clapping your hands and believing in fairies and believing that Brian Cashman is the bestest GM ever. Maybe if you dream really hard, it will be true!

    22. July 27th, 2013 | 11:11 pm

      Raf wrote:

      FWIW, articles after Martin signed with the Pirates all pretty much say the same thing, that the Yankees wanted Martin back. I can see why Martin would take a guaranteed offer from the Pirates instead of waiting around to see if the Yanks would offer him a contract.

      Right, but Cashman’s story now is that he wanted Martin back, but the big bad Steinbrenners wouldn’t let Bri get him back. Which was NOT the story seven months ago.

    23. KPOcala
      July 27th, 2013 | 11:15 pm

      @ Steve L.: Steve, you forget that Hughes, although it seems like I was in HS when I first heard the hype, is a 25 year old kid. He still has a lot of good stats, a good fastball/curve. What he lacks is the “auto-putaway pitch”. And as you well know, many pitchers take a long time to figure it all out. I believe the Yankees will rue the day if they let him go via trade or free agency. Barring injury, he has the potential to wind up with 200-250 career wins. I think that the endless hype has even gotten to you ;)

    24. KPOcala
      July 27th, 2013 | 11:25 pm

      @ lisaswan: Lisa, admit that you don’t know what REALLY goes on in MLB front offices. If the Big Bad Stein family wants to pay YOU over a million a year to swallow crap, and smile when the mob calls you an idiot, you’d push Cashman into a pit of cobras. So please, stop acting like this is a soap opera, where you get a first-person omniscient perspective. And fwiw, I’m not a Cashman fanboy, I would like a unbiased view, or narrative. If you read Torre’s book, or hell, any players’ or managers’ book, you’ll see that things that we read are likened to falling through the “rabbit hole”…….

    25. Raf
      July 28th, 2013 | 2:06 am

      lisaswan wrote:

      Yeah, it’s shocking to think that there might be a chance that a 42-year-old could be injured. Apparently, as long as you’re part of the core, you will never get injured, and you can play forever, no matter how old you are. You know, kind of like the way Derek Jeter stayed healthy…oh wait.

      And using your logic, since a closer is a closer is a closer, the Yanks can just pick somebody off the scrap heap and he will be just as good as Mariano Rivera. Right?

      And funny you should say about the scrap heap. Kyle Farnsworth says hi, and that he still stinks, even in a Rays uniform.

      Again, from the previous link;
      “Drew Storen, Brian Wilson, Ryan Madson, Sergio Santos, Joakim Soria, Kyle Farnsworth, Andrew Bailey”

      None of those teams felt the need to sign a “Soriano” as a backup plan (referring to a premium closer signed to setup). All those teams were able to find closers when their primary guys went down.

      Farnsworth isn’t the closer for the Rays anymore. That would be Fernando Rodney.

      The Red Sox got Joel Hanrahan from the Pirates, who went with Jason Grilli as their closer.
      http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grillja01.shtml

      Hanrahan got hurt. Andrew Bailey got hurt (again), Koji Uehara stepped in to fill the closer’s role.

      lisaswan wrote:

      But you keep on clapping your hands and believing in fairies and believing that Brian Cashman is the bestest GM ever. Maybe if you dream really hard, it will be true!

      Or perhaps believing that you’re capable of providing an intelligent (or at the very least coherent) response?

    26. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2013 | 5:12 am

      lisaswan wrote:

      Evan3457 wrote:
      Take that up with Heyman/Sherman the next time you see them.
      We’re just repeating what they’re reporting.
      Is the source Cashman? Prove it.
      Are you that naive? Of course the source is Cashman. The article is a puff piece in his favor.

      Assertion without proof. Otherwise known as no proof.

    27. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2013 | 5:45 am

      lisaswan wrote:

      Yeah, it’s shocking to think that there might be a chance that a 42-year-old could be injured.

      Boy, that’s right, what was I thinking of? I don’t know how many closers I’ve heard of who tear up their knees shagging flies. And the idea to buy a backup closer at primary closer prices…why…that’s sheer genius. And to give him the right to opt out whenever he wanted to if he had a good year closing while committing the team to three years of closers’ salaries if he was awful, why, that’s right out of the Harvard MBA program for sheer thinking-outside-the-box brilliance. Boy, I’m amazed the Phillies and the Angels and the Red Sox with their big payrolls never thought of this!

      It still ranks as one of the silliest things I’ve ever seen a team do with an extra $11 million a year, and it was bailed out by a freak injury that I’ve never even heard happen to any other player.
      =============================================

      Apparently, as long as you’re part of the core, you will never get injured, and you can play forever, no matter how old you are. You know, kind of like the way Derek Jeter stayed healthy…oh wait.

      …so as long as Levine was being a genius operator in the bullpen, why didn’t he use the extra money to sign J.J. Hardy as a backup for Jeter when he also became a free agent after the same 2010 off-season. Inasmuch as Hardy accepted $7 million a year for 3 years from the Orioles, maybe he’d have taken $33 million over 3 years from the Yankees to backup Jeter and A-Rod…and Levine could’ve given him the same opt out clauses if he felt he wasn’t being played enough.

      Actually, as monumentally stupid as that idea is, it’s a masterstroke compared to signing a 2nd closer at top closer prices, because it’s a helluva lot harder to replace a top shortstop or secondbasman than it is a top closer…

      For example, the Cards lost Jason Motte to a season ending surgery. They tried Boggs, and he didn’t work, so they went to Mujica, and despite the fact that Mujica had 6 career saves in 7 major league seasons, he’s doing the job just fine now.

      Last year, the Giants lost Brian Wilson to the same injury (TJ surgery), so they went to Santiago Casilla, and for awhile he was just fine. Then he faded down the stretch, so they went to their 3rd closer of the season, and all Sergio Romo did was lock down a title.

      This goes on with multiple teams every year; about 1/3 of teams change closers every season, and usually find someone who can fill the position competently for a year or two.
      ============================

      What makes Mariano so special is that he’s been able to do it as a top-flight closer for a preposterously long time, and you’re trying to make the case that Cashman is an idiot for not wanting to spend over $10 million a year to back up the most durable and reliable closer in major league history.

      Unbelievable.
      ==============================

      And using your logic, since a closer is a closer is a closer, the Yanks can just pick somebody off the scrap heap and he will be just as good as Mariano Rivera. Right?

      Wrong. I never said that. I never said anything like that, in fact.

      Had the Yankees had to replace Mariano, they’d have tried Robertson at first. If he flopped they would’ve had to try someone else. The odds are very good they’d have found someone competent. One thing Girardi is outstanding at is building up the bullpen on the fly; he’d have found a decent closer from among his various options. That closer wouldn’t have been as good as Mariano, but would’ve likely been good enough. The Yanks finished 5 games ahead of the last team out of the playoffs, the Rays. The replacement closer almost certainly not have cost the Yanks 5 games compared to Mariano.

      And since they didn’t win it all, the rest is a “doesn’t matter”.
      ==============================================

      And funny you should say about the scrap heap. Kyle Farnsworth says hi, and that he still stinks, even in a Rays uniform.

      Yet he was good enough to be the Rays primary closer in 2011, save 25 games, and the Rays made the playoffs anyway. They lost to the Rangers in four, but Farnsworth didn’t appear because the Rays didn’t have a close lead to protect.

      That’s what I’m talking about. If Kyle Farnsworth can successfully close for a playoff team, you damn well don’t have to spend $33 milion for 3 years for friggin’ backup closer.

      It’s a stone waste of money, and if you don’t believe that, let’s see how many teams imitate that “brilliant” maneuver in the future.

    28. July 28th, 2013 | 7:29 am

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Assertion without proof. Otherwise known as no proof.


      You just like to argue. The entire article Sherman wrote is from Cashman’s point of view. He is quoted in it, this is the first article to say that he is against the Alfonso Soriano trade, and the whole thing is a puff piece for his thinking. But you’re insinuating that Cashman didn’t supply that information? Keep dreaming, dude.

      P.S. Spending $11 million for Rafael Soriano made a heck of a lot more sense than spending $12 million on Kevin (DL) Youkilis.

      P.P.S. I am done with arguing with all you members of the Brian Cashman Fan Club. Do you get t-shirts and decoder rings with your membership?

    29. redbug
      July 28th, 2013 | 7:35 am

      @ KPOcala: If the Big Bad Stein family wants to pay YOU over a million a year

      Quite a bit over a million. Cashman has a 3 yr $9 million contract.

    30. Raf
      July 28th, 2013 | 10:23 am

      lisaswan wrote:

      Spending $11 million for Rafael Soriano made a heck of a lot more sense than spending $12 million on Kevin (DL) Youkilis.

      Youklis was to be the primary 3B until Rodriguez came back. After that, he was to slide into a backup role at 3B & 1B with some time at DH.

      Interesting you’re knocking the Youk signing but advocating the Rafael Soriano signing, given the latter’s medical history.

      I am done with arguing with all you members of the Brian Cashman Fan Club. Do you get t-shirts and decoder rings with your membership?

      Cute… I wouldn’t want to argue if I kept getting my ass handed to me either. If the above is the best you can do, you’re probably better off squawking to your target audience. :)

      Don’t go away mad, just go away :P

    31. Garcia
      July 28th, 2013 | 11:32 am

      lisaswan wrote:

      P.P.S. I am done with arguing with all you members of the Brian Cashman Fan Club. Do you get t-shirts and decoder rings with your membership?

      You really have little credibility as it pertains to t-shirts and decoder rings, the many years you were genuflecting all things ARod, and to go along with your hatred and bashing of Jeter (“he never supported ARod”). You are in no position to talk about fan clubs, since you have not done a good job of picking the right people to defend and love. People in glass houses …

      well…I’m sure you know the rest.

    32. Garcia
      July 28th, 2013 | 11:37 am

      Raf wrote:

      I wouldn’t want to argue if I kept getting my ass handed to me either. If the above is the best you can do, you’re probably better off squawking to your target audience.

      Word.

      Steve L. wrote:

      How was I wrong?

      You made an absolute statement about the Yankees pitching — you believed they would not be in the top 5 in the AL in pitching. I believe a good amount of folks here said they would be. If you want to slice-and-dice the data to make yourself look right, then fine, but your original statement had to do with the Yankees being in the top 5 and they are in the top 5. So, how was I wrong?

    33. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2013 | 12:35 pm

      lisaswan wrote:

      Evan3457 wrote:
      Assertion without proof. Otherwise known as no proof.

      You just like to argue. The entire article Sherman wrote is from Cashman’s point of view. He is quoted in it, this is the first article to say that he is against the Alfonso Soriano trade, and the whole thing is a puff piece for his thinking. But you’re insinuating that Cashman didn’t supply that information? Keep dreaming, dude.
      P.S. Spending $11 million for Rafael Soriano made a heck of a lot more sense than spending $12 million on Kevin (DL) Youkilis.
      P.P.S. I am done with arguing with all you members of the Brian Cashman Fan Club. Do you get t-shirts and decoder rings with your membership?

      Re: Cashman is the source: still no proof at all. You really think Heyman or Sherman didn’t double check with another source within the organization, but just ran with whatever Cashman told them?

      P.S. No, it doesn’t. The Yankees had an actual NEED. They needed a third baseman to play in place of A-Rod. It makes far more sense to pay $12 million for a player who actually has a role, than it does to pay $12 for a backup closer just in case your closer blows out his knee shagging flies. That Youkiliis got hurt twice, and for most of the season, is a bit of bad luck, considering he played 120 games in both 2011 and 2012.

      P.P.S. Done arguing? Let me know when your CDS subsides and you have a point worth making.

    34. Corey
      July 28th, 2013 | 12:38 pm

      Barring injury, he has the potential to wind up with 200-250 career wins.
      —————
      Can’t agree with you there…Hughes is just not that good. And for the record, he’s 27.

      But I do agree with you, that he’ll have better numbers outside of Yankee Stadium. I could see him going back to his slider once he leaves since that was the pitch that got him all the hype and the Yankees seemingly won’t let him throw it.

    35. KPOcala
      July 28th, 2013 | 12:41 pm

      Steve L. wrote:

      He didn’t seem to care about keeping Zach McAllister and Tyler Clippard, who he gave away for nothing.

      Come on Steve, nobody thought that those two guys were going to do anything, especially Mcallister. Personally, I saw quite a bit of Clippard on MLB.com games, and I was sad to see him go. But I never would have thought that he’d be a reliever, with this kind of success. And honestly, who did?

    36. KPOcala
      July 28th, 2013 | 12:42 pm

      @ redbug: Hey, I’ll take that too ;) I had forgotten about his current contract. Years go by, don’t they? ;)

    37. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2013 | 12:43 pm

      I was under the impression Hughes had junked the cutter permanently, cut down on the curve and change and was throwing the slider more this season. Fangraphs thinks so:

      2012: FB 65%, SL 4%, CT 2%, CB 18%, CH 10%
      2013: FB 64%, SL 22%, CT 0%, CB 8%, CH 6%

    38. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2013 | 12:44 pm

      Oh, yeah, Clippard for the injured Storen. Another backup closer replacing a closer, and getting the team to the post-season.

    39. KPOcala
      July 28th, 2013 | 12:49 pm

      @ lisaswan:
      You haven’t told us what third baseman that YOU would have picked-up, especially with “Hanks’ Albatross” clouding the picture. Lisawan, why don’t you give us a ten point plan that YOU would have done had YOU been in Cashmans’ shoes over the last 13 or so years. I’m sure that many of us would love to see your baseball acumen.

    40. KPOcala
      July 28th, 2013 | 1:02 pm

      Funny how stocks and real estate are exactly like picking baseball players for your team. We are all 20/20 in our hindsight. So some of us ought to lighten up. George, Hank, and Levine most likely made the moves that have left the team in this state. Not to say that Cashman isn’t at fault as well. I wonder about the scouting and development, or lack thereof. I don’t KNOW if the Yankees pinch their pennies with who and how many scouts they hire. I don’t KNOW how good the coordinators are, or the instructors. I know that at the time, a number of years back reading from different sources that the Yanks had good people in place. But the problem with evaluating the farm, it’s almost as tough as climatology. Things move at glacial speed, who the hell knows? And often, highly talented players just get cut-down by injuries. Anyone who can remember that 5 years ago, the Red Sox were brimming with alleged “can’t miss” farmhands. Almost all did miss. We become a bit “Yankee-centric” it’s what we care about. But if you turn the microscope to other clubs, it aint so easy to shred the Yankees decision making…..

    41. Tuttle
      July 28th, 2013 | 1:38 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      Did he want… Jeff Weaver…

      “”We’re ecstatic to have the opportunity to seize the moment to acquire someone of his abilities at his age,’ General Manager Brian Cashman…
      ”We’re fortunate… This is another sure sign that this team is dead serious about what we’re trying to accomplish on that field right now, and we look forward to Jeff stepping in here and assisting…’

      The immediate question is how, exactly, Weaver will assist. He was 6-8 with a 3.18 earned run average in 17 starts for the Tigers.

      The Yankees already have five established starters…. Cashman would not speculate on Weaver’s role…

      ‘I can’t say that we needed another pitcher,” Cashman said. ”But we took the opportunity to jump on Jeff Weaver for now, and also for what he does going forward for us in the future. He’s ONE OF THE PREMIER YOUNG PITCHERS IN THE GAME. We look for him to be a mainstay in our rotation for years to come. We have some AGE, obviously, in our rotation.’”

      KPOcala wrote:

      Did he want… R.Soriano…

      Without Soriano, the team doesn’t have a playoff appearance in 2012 and it’s unceremonious sweep by Detroit.

      Even without Rivera’s injury, Soriano was money well spent the way he was throwing. It was a good decision by Levine and Steinbrenner either way. It was money better spent than on a significant number of Cashman signings.

      KPOcala wrote:

      Did he want… Clemens…

      “Ash was ready to deal Clemens, and he wanted an offer from the Yankees.

      ‘No, Gord,’ Cashman countered. ‘If you’ve got something in mind, then make me an offer… Ash’s response ‘made my knees buckle,’ Cashman said…”

      In 2007, Kei Igawa was on the roster occupying a spot in the starting rotation. Whose decision was it to sign Igawa, indirectly leading to or necessitating the re-signing of Clemens?

      KPOcala wrote:

      Did he want… Kevin Brown…

      Who was he in favor of acquiring in place of Brown to fill the need in the rotation?

      KPOcala wrote:

      Did he want… Randy Johnson…

      In fact, he offered Robinson Cano as part of a package for Johnson in 2004.
      Garcia wrote:

      If you want to slice-and-dice the data to make yourself look right, then fine, but your original statement had to do with the Yankees being in the top 5 and they are in the top 5. So, how was I wrong?

      Sabathia: 9-9 W-L; 4.65 ERA; Pettitte: 7-8 W-L; 4.39 ERA; Hughes: 4-9 W-L; 4.33 ERA.

      A lot of teams have better rotations than this, and Detroit (0.01) and Tampa Bay (0.02) are right there in team ERA, and Boston’s not far behind having lost Buchholz – Cashman’s aged rotation has been healthy. But that rotation is gone next year, while the others will still be in tact and still competing for a championships.

    42. Tuttle
      July 28th, 2013 | 1:41 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      George, Hank, and Levine most likely made the moves that have left the team in this state.

      Ridiculous and not supportable. Cashman is the GM.

    43. Kamieniecki
      July 28th, 2013 | 4:34 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      lisawan, why don’t you give us a ten point plan that YOU would have done had YOU been in Cashmans’ shoes over the last 13 or so years.

      That’s a very fair question. Why don’t you give us a list of all of Cashman moves you disagreed with, and what moves you would have made instead?

      For example, the team had Brosius at third – would YOU have made the Lowell trade? If not, what move would YOU have made? The team had a promising young pitcher in Lilly and decided it should upgrade to Weaver. Would YOU have made that trade? Why or why not?

      Would YOU have not traded Mariano Rivera?

      Would YOU have not traded Derek Jeter?

      Would YOU have not traded Jorge Posada?

      Would YOU have traded someone from the 1998 team? O’Neill? Martinez? Williams? Who?

      Would YOU have signed Hernandez? Why not?

      Would YOU have approached negotiations with Pettitte differently in 2003-04?

      Would YOU have signed Mussina? Why not?

      Would YOU have traded Contreras for Loaiza? Why?

      Would YOU have acquired Kevin Brown? Why?

      What moves would YOU have made to strengthen the league average starting rotation from 2005-08 with the highest payroll in baseball?

      Would YOU have signed Kei Igawa? Why?

      Would YOU have acquired or signed Ponson? Why?

      Would YOU have signed Pavano? Why?

      Would YOU have acquired Javier Vazquez? If not Vazquez, who would you have acquired or promoted to fill the need in the rotation?

      What would YOU have done in preparation for Posada’s retirement? If not Martin, who would YOU have acquired to play or promoted to catch?

      Would YOU have signed Burnett? Why?

      Would YOU have traded Marte? Why?

      Would YOU have signed the injury prone Nick Johnson as a left-handed DH? Why?

      Would YOU have signed Sabathia? Why not?

      Would YOU have signed Teixeira? Why not?

      Would YOU have traded Jackson and Kennedy for Granderson? Why? If not Granderson, who would YOU have acquired to play, or moved to, centerfield?

      Would YOU have traded YOUR top prospect for Pineda? Why?

      Would YOU have signed Hafner instead of Ibanez? Why?

      Would YOU have signed Pierzynski? Why not?

      Would YOU have acquired Vernon Wells? If not Wells, who would YOU have acquired as a right-handed DH for the 2013 season?

      Would YOU have acquired Alfonso Soriano? Why not?

      If YOU were the GM from 2010-13, would the starting rotation for 2014 look like the following: Sabathia, Nova, Pineda, Phelps, ? as of Aug. 1, 2013?

    44. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2013 | 4:57 pm

      Tuttle wrote:

      Without Soriano, the team doesn’t have a playoff appearance in 2012 and it’s unceremonious sweep by Detroit.

      Not necessarily true. Yanks made the playoffs by 5 games over the first team out, the Rays.

    45. Tuttle
      July 28th, 2013 | 7:53 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      42 saves with a 2.26 ERA. The team doesn’t have a playoff appearance without Soriano. And does not have much of a chance in the playoffs without the replacement of a Rivera with an arm like that. Throw out all of the not necessarily trues you want, but that kind of production can’t be discounted.

      And whether it was foreseeable that a 42 year old pitcher would sustain that particular type of injury in that way is not relevant. You’ve seen what can happen with injuries this year. It’s “not necessarily true” that Rivera or Robertson wouldn’t have been injured a week or a month later in a different set of circumstances.

      Soriano proved to be a valuable addition to the bullpen and insurance policy. If the team can afford $39.95 million for a pitcher with the injury history of a Pavano who had won more than 6 games only twice and not more than 18, the team can afford a contract like Soriano’s.

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Cashman’s probably right about Soriano not helping the Yankees much.

      Not today. And even if Cashman is right for one of the few times in his career concerning a trade, he didn’t have much of a choice: you can’t field a team that can’t score runs AT ALL. It’s a common theme with a lot of moves of the Cashman Yankees – not much of a choice. It’s the interminable plugging of holes until a Sabathia, Teixeira, Burnett, etc. is available, a salary dump opportunity such as for Swisher presents itself, or a deal can be made where excessive value is exchanged for a Granderson.

      There wasn’t much the team could offer for a player of Soriano’s caliber, and it can’t go out there scoring 0-1 runs just about every day.

      But it’s necessarily true that the bill has come due: Pettitte is retiring. Rivera is retiring. Jeter’s days are numbered. Sabathia is not CC Sabathia anymore. Kuroda is 39. Ivan Nova is the only bright spot in the rotation.

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Contingency planning…you mean Levine planned on Mariano tearing up his knee shagging flies.

      Levine planned on having a deep and formidable bullpen with the flexibility to address declining production from a 42 year old closer who coincidentally happened to get injured.

    46. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2013 | 8:57 pm

      Tuttle wrote:

      @ Evan3457:
      42 saves with a 2.26 ERA. The team doesn’t have a playoff appearance without Soriano. And does not have much of a chance in the playoffs without the replacement of a Rivera with an arm like that. Throw out all of the not necessarily trues you want, but that kind of production can’t be discounted.

      I’m not discounting anything. You’re overestimating the difference between a good closer and the man who eventually replaces him. A few teams fall apart in that situation, but most find a tolerable replacement and life goes on without spending $11 million a year to do it.

      And whether it was foreseeable that a 42-year old pitcher would sustain that particular type of injury in that way is not relevant. You’ve seen what can happen with injuries this year. It’s “not necessarily true” that Rivera or Robertson wouldn’t have been injured a week or a month later in a different set of circumstances.

      On the contrary, it IS relevant. It took a freak injury for the Soriano contract to just start making sense.

      Soriano proved to be a valuable addition to the bullpen and insurance policy. If the team can afford $39.95 million for a pitcher with the injury history of a Pavano who had won more than 6 games only twice and not more than 18, the team can afford a contract like Soriano’s.

      Not remotely the same. The 2004-5 Yankees needed starting pitching, and Pavano was the 2nd best pitcher on the market that off-season after Pedro. They didn’t need to sign a 2nd closer in the 2010-2011 off-season and pay him $10 million to do 7th inning set-up work (mostly poorly, by the way) for a year and a month, and then “luck” into a freak injury to make the move look “brilliant”

      It’s a stupid, unnecessary, waste of $11-12 million a year that lucked out from Levine’s point of view. Why do people defending the Soriano contract insist on comparing it to moves that were at least logical attempts to fill holes on the roster, even if they wound up failing? Can’t you fathom this is 100% hindsight?

      Evan3457 wrote:
      Cashman’s probably right about Soriano not helping the Yankees much.

      Not today.

      I’m very happy Soriano had a big hand in helping them win today. They needed it, desperately. On the other side, he helped them lose both on Friday and Saturday.

      And even if Cashman is right for one of the few times in his career concerning a trade, he didn’t have much of a choice: you can’t field a team that can’t score runs AT ALL.

      I agree; I said at the time of the deal it helps the Yankees a small amount. So did Cashman, by the way.

      But it’s necessarily true that the bill has come due: Pettitte is retiring. Rivera is retiring. Jeter’s days are numbered. Sabathia is not CC Sabathia anymore. Kuroda is 39. Ivan Nova is the only bright spot in the rotation.

      I agree. Having a ton of money coming off the books the season will help in the short run. Moving the budget back to where it was in the 2014-15 off-season will help more. A suspension of a A-Rod will help still more.

      Levine planned on having a deep and formidable bullpen with the flexibility to address declining production from a 42 year old closer who coincidentally happened to get injured.

      So, when Soriano left this off-season, why didn’t he turn around and sign another $10 million closer to a one-year deal to back Mariano up for this off-season? If the strategy is such genius, why did he do it to back up 41-year-old Mariano, but not a further declining, now proven brittle 43-year-old Mariano?

      Because it’s a stupid, stupid, stupid idea, and also because the “non-existent” team payroll cap for 2014 prevents him from offering another idiotic 3 year deal.

      Only NOW, the 3-year deal would actually make a little bit of sense, because Mariano IS retiring after this season, and “the Yanks have no closer” for 2014.

      ==============================
      Some of the worst moves Cashman ever made, from an objective standpoint, involved spending big money for backup closers/set-up men: Karsay, Farnsworth, Feliciano, and, to a lesser extent, Gordon.

      Karsay cost the Yankees $21 million over 4 years.
      Farnsworth cost the Yankees $17 million over 3 years.
      Feliciano cost the Yanks $8.5 million over 2 years.
      Gordon was a bargain compared to these 3; only $7.25 million for 2 years. And he stayed healthy/pitched far better than the other 3, at least during the regular season.

      These were all bad moves at the time they were made, except arguably Gordon, and got worse as they went along. The decision to sign Soriano cost the Yanks twice as much per season, and it was twice as bad.

      You know, even the Nationals aren’t going to pay Soriano as much per season as the Yankees would have, and he’s actually going to be the closer for them this year and next, and possibly in 2015.

    47. Kamieniecki
      July 28th, 2013 | 9:09 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      What makes Mariano so special is that he’s been able to do it as a top-flight closer for a preposterously long time, and you’re trying to make the case that Cashman is an idiot for not wanting to spend over $10 million a year to back up the most durable and reliable closer in major league history.

      No one said Cashman’s an idiot for that reason. He’s an idiot for wanting to spend over $46 million for Kei Igawa and for many other reasons. Soriano was not a “backup” closer – he was not there in case Rivera got injured. He was there because he had an excellent arm and Rivera was 42 years old, and in the event either Robertson or Rivera or someone else was injured.

      “In fact, Rivera in some sense chose his own successor, going to bat for Soriano with Yankees brass to convince the team to sign him… Soriano is likely to replace Kerry Wood as Rivera’s top setup man. Soriano, however, would give the Yankees extra insurance on days when they might want to rest Rivera. And with New York’s rotation still somewhat uncertain — Andy Pettitte isn’t sure if he’ll return for another season, Javier Vazquez signed with Florida — Soriano would help add length and depth to a bullpen that might need to pitch extra innings for shaky starters.”

      He was never meant to be a “backup” for Rivera. “And with New York’s rotation somewhat uncertain” – when has that not been the case with Cashman – it seems like every year.

    48. Scout
      July 28th, 2013 | 9:15 pm

      Why did the whole tone here become so hostile? I don’t know about you, but I join the conversation here as a diversion. It should be fun, light-hearted, and generous in spirit. We’re all going to enjoy it more if we refrain from personal attacks, telling people to get lost, etc.

    49. Kamieniecki
      July 28th, 2013 | 9:16 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      It’s a stupid, unnecessary, waste of $11-12 million a year that lucked out from Levine’s point of view.

      A stupid, unnecessary move that saved the season. MARIANO RIVERA HIMSELF LOBBIED LEVINE FOR SORIANO. And to Levine’s credit, he made the correct decision.
      Evan3457 wrote:

      Some of the worst moves Cashman ever made, from an objective standpoint, involved spending big money for backup closers/set-up men: Karsay, Farnsworth, Feliciano, and, to a lesser extent, Gordon.
      Karsay cost the Yankees $21 million over 4 years.
      Farnsworth cost the Yankees $17 million over 3 years.
      Feliciano cost the Yanks $8.5 million over 2 years.
      Gordon was a bargain compared to these 3; only $7.25 million for 2 years. And he stayed healthy/pitched far better than the other 3, at least during the regular season.

      From an absurd standpoint: the worst moves Cashman ever made aren’t even contained in this list!

    50. Tuttle
      July 28th, 2013 | 9:28 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Why do people defending the Soriano contract insist on comparing it to moves that were at least logical attempts to fill holes on the roster, even if they wound up failing? Can’t you fathom this is 100% hindsight?

      I wasn’t comparing the move to signing Pavano at all – I was demonstrating that this team has the $11 million. And considering the amount of money Cashman has wasted in his futile attempts to build a substantial front of the rotation, $11 million is nothing – $23 million was spent on each of Igawa’s 2 wins alone.

      Pavano and Igawa are not 100% hindsight – that money should NOT have been spent. Burnett is questionable as well, as are a lot of other decisions in the last decade as far as the rotation is concerned.
      Evan3457 wrote:

      On the other side, he helped them lose both on Friday and Saturday.

      LOL. WHICH OF CASHMAN’S RETREADS DID SORIANO PREVENT FROM SAVING THE DAY ON FRIDAY AND SATURDAY?
      Kamieniecki wrote:

      “In fact, Rivera in some sense chose his own successor, going to bat for Soriano with Yankees brass to convince the team to sign him…

      @ Evan3457:
      You’re arguing against Rivera himself, Levine, and a decision that put in place 42 saves in 2012 and made a playoff appearance possible. Levine listened to Rivera; Cashman did not, and the decision paid off. Period.

    51. Kamieniecki
      July 28th, 2013 | 9:36 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      “Because Mariano Rivera, for 15 years the most important cog in the machine that is the New York Yankees, has apparently saved his team once more…. As befitting an aging king preparing to abdicate his throne, Rivera — according to a source with intimate knowledge of the negotiations — chose his own successor…

      He chose Rafael Soriano. More importantly, HE CONVINCED HIS BOSSES TO CHOOSE SORIANO.

      And just like that, a team with huge holes in both its starting rotation and bullpen comes up with a waterproof patch. Suddenly, a question mark becomes an exclamation point. A shaky bullpen becomes one of the best in the league.

      And WITHOUT MARIANO GOING TO BAT FOR SORIANO, giving him the vote of confidence the Yankees needed to hear and AGREEING TO TAKE HIM UNDER HIS WING…maybe it doesn’t happen at all…”

    52. Tuttle
      July 28th, 2013 | 10:10 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      I agree. Having a ton of money coming off the books the season will help in the short run.

      Having Mariano Rivera come off the books is NOT going to help this team. And Sabathia is not coming off the books for years. This is Cashman’s mess; no one else’s.

    53. KPOcala
      July 28th, 2013 | 10:31 pm

      @ Tuttle: Impossible to argue with someone with such a narrow focus, and narrative. If you want to believe that those were all Cashman moves, then you must still be in high school. Or did you have to quit at 16? Objective thinking must have gone out of vogue, twenty years ago.

    54. KPOcala
      July 28th, 2013 | 10:37 pm

      @ Tuttle: Impossible to argue with someone with such a narrow focus, and narrative. If you want to believe that those were all Cashman moves, then you must still be in high school. Or did you have to quit at 16? Objective thinking must have gone out of vogue, twenty years ago.
      Evan3457 wrote:

      Can’t you fathom this is 100% hindsight?

      Evan, the “tuttles” and “lisaswans” of the world can’t fathom anything. They are only capable of picking nits off of smart peoples’ heads…..

    55. KPOcala
      July 28th, 2013 | 10:40 pm

      Tuttle wrote:

      Ridiculous and not supportable. Cashman is the GM.

      The “money shot” quote that reveals you to be a kid, or an imbecile.

    56. Ricketson
      July 28th, 2013 | 11:02 pm

      Raf wrote:

      None of those teams felt the need to sign a “Soriano” as a backup plan (referring to a premium closer signed to setup). All those teams were able to find closers when their primary guys went down.

      It wasn’t a backup plan. The plan was to bolster the bullpen, and depending on how Soriano worked out and what Rivera’s retirement plans turned out to be, possibly have a closer in Soriano in place.

      It just so happened that Rivera was injured. Soriano was NOT signed as a contingency against an injury to a 42-yr.-old closer ONLY. None of those teams had a closer approaching retirement.

      And it worked out quite well in spite of John Cashman’s son’s objections, not surprisingly.

    57. Ricketson
      July 28th, 2013 | 11:03 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      The “money shot” quote that reveals you to be a kid, or an imbecile.

      Are you the same person that whines about being bullied and torched by Recanati, or is that someone else?

    58. Evan3457
      July 29th, 2013 | 1:40 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      Soriano was not a “backup” closer – he was not there in case Rivera got injured.

      Congratulations. You just described a backup closer as “not a backup closer”

      He was there because he had an excellent arm and Rivera was 42 years old, and in the event either Robertson or Rivera or someone else was injured.

      If he’s not there to be a backup closer, then why did they have to give him $36 million for 3 years? But wait, it gets even better: now, the Yankees are spending $36 million for 3 years to be a backup 8th inning guy, in case Robertson gets hurt.

      “In fact, Rivera in some sense chose his own successor, going to bat for Soriano with Yankees brass to convince the team to sign him… Soriano is likely to replace Kerry Wood as Rivera’s top setup man. Soriano, however, would give the Yankees extra insurance on days when they might want to rest Rivera. And with New York’s rotation still somewhat uncertain — Andy Pettitte isn’t sure if he’ll return for another season, Javier Vazquez signed with Florida — Soriano would help add length and depth to a bullpen that might need to pitch extra innings for shaky starters.”

      I don’t mind if Mariano lobbies for bullpen help. I mind if the Yankees pay $36 million for 3 years for a backup closer.

      He was never meant to be a “backup” for Rivera.

      Yes, he was, and it’s obvious he was from the amount of money in the deal. You don’t pay that kind of money for a set-up man/backup set-up man. You don’t have to overpay a set-up man like that to keep him from a accepting a lesser deal to set up for another team.

      “And with New York’s rotation somewhat uncertain” – when has that not been the case with Cashman – it seems like every year.

      Then wouldn’t it have made more sense to hold that $11-12 million a year in reserve in case a hole opened in that rotation, so they could make a mid-season acquisition, if a decent starter came available?

    59. Evan3457
      July 29th, 2013 | 1:50 am

      Scout wrote:

      Why did the whole tone here become so hostile? I don’t know about you, but I join the conversation here as a diversion. It should be fun, light-hearted, and generous in spirit. We’re all going to enjoy it more if we refrain from personal attacks, telling people to get lost, etc.

      It became a lot more hostile when the Cashman Derangement Syndrome (CDS) people arrived, calling him an idiot in every post, and attacking those who don’t think he’s the worst GM in baseball as being mentally deficient.

      If I’m more hostile in my replies, it’s because I don’t like people implying I’m an idiot for not going along with that, and failing to deal rationally with counter-arguments.

      I always start my replies mildly, but when I get scorn in return, I answer in kind. The 6th reply in the thread is typical. Then Lisa chimed in making claims about Cashman and the piece. I challenged her, and things deteriorated from there.

    60. Evan3457
      July 29th, 2013 | 1:55 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      A stupid, unnecessary move that saved the season. MARIANO RIVERA HIMSELF LOBBIED LEVINE FOR SORIANO. And to Levine’s credit, he made the correct decision.

      Re: Mariano lobbying for Soriano…asked and answered two replies above this one.
      Re: saving the season…as I’ve mentioned twice, probably not. The difference between a top closer and an average one is not 5 games in the standings, unless a succession of blown saves causes a team to quit. Most other teams who lose a top closer are able to compensate with an adequate fill-in without spending $36 million for 3 years.

      From an absurd standpoint: the worst moves Cashman ever made aren’t even contained in this list!

      90% of the moves considered Cashman’s worst that were not in that list are 99 44/100ths% hindsight. I call these moves some of the worst from an objective standpoint is because there was almost no way they could’ve “worked”, even if the player in question had stayed healthy/pitched better. Each of those players had a questionable history, either injury-related (of which Soriano was also one, by the way), or of not pitching well under the type of pressure pitching for the Yankees can generate.

    61. Evan3457
      July 29th, 2013 | 2:18 am

      Tuttle wrote:

      Pavano and Igawa are not 100% hindsight – that money should NOT have been spent. Burnett is questionable as well, as are a lot of other decisions in the last decade as far as the rotation is concerned.

      Not true. Both are entirely hindsight.

      1) Pavano was actively chased by both Epstein and Dombrowsky, two GMs who are commonly cited as being better than Cashman. Even if they offered less than Cashman (and I believe one of them offered more, if I remember correctly), the fact that both made offers proves that Pavano was commonly considered worth chasing. Pavano had just come off the best season of his career, had pitched 200 innings for two straight years for the first time in his career, making at least 32 starts in both years, had pitched very well in 2003 in post-season play, and made the All-Star team and finished 6th in the Cy Young voting in 2004, and was only 29 years old. That’s worthy of a four-year free agent contract.

      2) Igawa is also hindsight, unless you had access to scouting reports of other major league teams at the time the bids for him were posted.

      LOL. WHICH OF CASHMAN’S RETREADS DID SORIANO PREVENT FROM SAVING THE DAY ON FRIDAY AND SATURDAY?

      Now, you see, this is what I was talking about in my previous reply to Scout about the increased hostility.

      ==============================
      Let’s review here…we’re talking about how Cashman didn’t really want Soriano, and the people higher in the organization stepped in and did it anyway. I point out that Soriano will be a help, although not a big one. (Which I infer is Cashman’s position too, as it happens.) I get the counter-argument that he was a big help in winning today’s game. To bolster my original argument here, I point out that also helped them lose on Friday and Saturday, to which I get the following:

      LOL
      All Caps.
      An irrelevent point that no one else helped them win those two games, either.

      All posted with an inappropriate tone of triumphalism.

      OK, maybe Scout has a point, so I’ll try to not make things worse in my reply. Anyway…
      ================================
      The issue is not that no one else helped the Yankees win on Friday and Saturday. They issue is that Soriano is a plus, but very likely not a big plus. He helped them win today, and greatly. But he absolutely helped them lose on Friday and Saturday, and the fact that so did everybody else on the team is…oh, how can I put this?…oh, yeah…IRRELEVANT to the discussion of how much Soriano will/will not help the Yanks from here.

      You’re arguing against Rivera himself, Levine, and a decision that put in place 42 saves in 2012 and made a playoff appearance possible. Levine listened to Rivera; Cashman did not, and the decision paid off. Period.

      Well, no, not really.

      Because the cost of losing a top-rank closer is usually not what you think it is, not what most fans think it is.

      Some of the CDS people complained that the Yankee offense in 2012 was obviously too weak to win a title or even a pennant; is it possible that the $12 million could’ve been used to pick up a better hitter for the stretch run and post-season, and that could’ve picked up the slack for Mariano in terms of making the post-season? Or a better starting pitcher?

      Now, I’m not saying that one hitter would’ve made a big difference against Detroit. But it’s possible that the right hitter might have lifted the pressure Cano was obviously feeling, and that, in turn might’ve lifted the pressure on some of the others, and made the series more competitive.

      If you’re going to make the counter-argument that one more hitter wouldn’t have mattered the slightest, tell me this: how much did having a top-rank “backup closer” matter in that four-game sweep?

    62. Evan3457
      July 29th, 2013 | 2:29 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      And just like that, a team with huge holes in both its starting rotation and bullpen comes up with a waterproof patch. Suddenly, a question mark becomes an exclamation point. A shaky bullpen becomes one of the best in the league.

      The 2010 Yankees were 3rd in the AL in relief ERA. At the start of the 2011 season, they had Mariano, Robertson, Chamberlain and Logan.

      Then they spent about $14-15 million a year for a 3rd set up man and a 2nd lefty. It wasn’t necessary.

      As I’ve said, it’s OK for Mariano to lobby for more help. It’s not OK to spend $12 million a year for a backup closer/set-up man.

    63. Evan3457
      July 29th, 2013 | 2:30 am

      Tuttle wrote:

      Evan3457 wrote:
      I agree. Having a ton of money coming off the books the season will help in the short run.
      Having Mariano Rivera come off the books is NOT going to help this team. And Sabathia is not coming off the books for years. This is Cashman’s mess; no one else’s.

      Depends if they can replace 90-95% of Mariano at 50% of the cost or less. It’s possible, you know.

      Sabathia is very likely to bounce back and be a good pitcher again, unless he’s hiding a serious injury, which I don’t think he is.

    64. KPOcala
      July 29th, 2013 | 2:51 am

      @ Ricketson: Yeah. What of it? “Tuttle” likes to bait, and I slapped him down. He shoots without bullets. When I write, I write with forty years of watching and studying the game. I’m not trying to “defend” a man who makes three million a year. But for this idiotic hindsight that enables fans to look like “baseball savants”, please…. spare me. Take the time and actually read “Tuttles’” and “Lisaswans’” ridiculous comments, and you should understand my getting fed-up. What, are you “Tuttles” boyfriend or something? And fwiw, I don’t whine, ever.