• Phil Hughes Win-Loss % Historically Bad For Yankees

    Posted by on August 16th, 2013 · Comments (18)

    But, wins for pitchers don’t really matter, right?

    Worst Yankees W-L records, minimum 15 decisions:

    Rk Player W-L% Dec Year Age Tm G W L IP BB SO ERA ERA+ HR
    1 Al Orth .133 15 1908 35 NYY 21 2 13 139.1 30 22 3.42 72 4
    2 Bill Hogg .200 20 1908 26 NYY 24 4 16 152.1 63 72 3.01 82 4
    3 Jim Bouton .211 19 1965 26 NYY 30 4 15 151.1 60 97 4.82 71 23
    4 George McConnell .211 19 1913 35 NYY 35 4 15 180.0 60 72 3.20 94 2
    5 David Cone .222 18 2000 37 NYY 30 4 14 155.0 82 120 6.91 70 25
    6 Phil Hughes .250 16 2013 27 NYY 23 4 12 125.0 35 105 4.97 81 23
    7 Charlie Shields .267 15 1902 22 BLA 23 4 11 142.1 32 28 4.24 89 7
    8 Marty McHale .273 22 1914 27 NYY 31 6 16 191.0 33 75 2.97 93 3
    9 Joe Lake .290 31 1908 27 NYY 38 9 22 269.1 77 118 3.17 78 6
    10 Andy Hawkins .294 17 1990 30 NYY 28 5 12 157.2 82 74 5.37 74 20
    11 Ray Caldwell .294 17 1916 28 NYY 21 5 12 165.2 65 76 2.99 98 6
    12 Melido Perez .300 20 1993 27 NYY 25 6 14 163.0 64 148 5.19 80 22
    13 Scott Kamieniecki .300 20 1992 28 NYY 28 6 14 188.0 74 88 4.36 90 13
    14 Bob Shawkey .300 20 1925 34 NYY 33 6 14 186.0 67 81 4.11 104 12
    15 Bill Zuber .313 16 1945 32 NYY 21 5 11 127.0 56 50 3.19 109 2
    16 Tim Leary .321 28 1990 31 NYY 31 9 19 208.0 78 138 4.11 96 18
    17 Darrell Rasner .333 15 2008 27 NYY 24 5 10 113.1 39 67 5.40 82 14
    18 Chuck Cary .333 18 1990 30 NYY 28 6 12 156.2 55 134 4.19 95 21
    19 Lindy McDaniel .333 15 1971 35 NYY 44 5 10 69.2 24 39 5.04 65 12
    20 Marius Russo .333 15 1943 28 NYY 24 5 10 101.2 45 42 3.72 87 7
    Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
    Generated 8/16/2013.

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    Comments on Phil Hughes Win-Loss % Historically Bad For Yankees

    1. Garcia
      August 16th, 2013 | 10:04 am

      I hate watching him pitch.

    2. August 16th, 2013 | 10:06 am

      His body language stinks – esp after he gives up a homer.

    3. MJ Recanati
      August 16th, 2013 | 10:24 am

      Steve L. wrote:

      But, wins for pitchers don’t really matter, right?

      They don’t, as long as peripherals suggest a pitcher is pitching better than his record. In this case, Hughes isn’t pitching measurably better than his peripherals so he’s more or less “earned” all of these losses.

      That being said, a move to a ballpark that suppresses flyballs will make him look a whole lot better. He’s inconsistent — that much is clear — but taking out about half a homerun from his 1.66 HR/9 would make him look like a different pitcher.

      If the Mariners, Mets, Padres or Dodgers sign him, they’ll get a #3 starter where the Yankees are getting #5 production right now.

    4. EHawk
      August 16th, 2013 | 10:42 am

      I kinda feel bad for Hughes…He’s not as bad as he is pitching this season and its gonna cost him a lot of money…Maybe the pressure of free agency got to him? He came out and said he would consider signing as a relief pitcher…with that being said I have no idea why the Yanks keep trotting him out there every five days. Throw him in the bullpen and get someone else in his spot.

    5. MJ Recanati
      August 16th, 2013 | 11:00 am

      EHawk wrote:

      its gonna cost him a lot of money

      I actually don’t think it will. Some team will sign him for 3Y/$30M and, if it’s a team with a ballpark that suppresses homers, they’ll get a good deal for that price.

      EHawk wrote:

      Throw him in the bullpen and get someone else in his spot.

      This is where Phelps’s injury sort of hurts. He’d be getting these starts in Hughes’s place. Though, I suppose, they should let Adam Warren have a crack at it.

    6. Kamieniecki
      August 16th, 2013 | 11:05 am

      Steve L. wrote:

      But, wins for pitchers don’t really matter, right?

      Are first baseman, second baseman, etc. charged with wins or losses?

      If wins or losses don’t matter for pitchers, especially starting pitchers, then why charge them with a win or a loss, or have the statistic? The game would be no different tomorrow if pitchers were no longer charged with wins and losses.

      It matters for starting pitchers; starting pitching is the most important part of the game.

      If this isn’t the right team for Hughes, the evidence should have been in a long time ago and he should have been pitching for a different team yesterday, not starting with a 4-12 record in Aug., 2013 to leave via free agency in 2013 – he’s been pitching in The Bronx since 2007.

    7. Garcia
      August 16th, 2013 | 11:41 am

      Steve L. wrote:

      His body language stinks – esp after he gives up a homer.

      I know!

      Yesterday Kay was saying how his fastball has a lot more life and how he looks more confident out there, then he gives up a homerun like 3 minutes after Kay was singing his praises. Then you see his body language change, I want to f’ing choke and shake the shit out of Hughes at that moment.

      He’s just fragile. Can’t wait till he’s pitching for another team.

    8. August 16th, 2013 | 11:49 am

      I also think this year’s won-loss record, if it is not all that fair, is a nice offset for the year where he won 18…and didn’t really pitch like an 18-game winner.

    9. Kamieniecki
      August 16th, 2013 | 12:27 pm

      Steve L. wrote:

      I also think this year’s won-loss record, if it is not all that fair, is a nice offset for the year where he won 18…and didn’t really pitch like an 18-game winner.

      I’m not fond of the expression, but “it is what it is.” Kuroda is a RHP that pitches for the same team, and he is 11-7; Hughes is 4-12.

      EHawk wrote:

      [I]ts gonna cost him a lot of money…

      Yep. Pitchers with a 36-23 career record one year before free agency can generally expect contract offers of a lot more money coming off a 16-13 season than a 6-18 season.

    10. MJ Recanati
      August 16th, 2013 | 1:17 pm

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      If wins or losses don’t matter for pitchers…then why…have the statistic?

      There are plenty of stats we have that add very little value. RBI is a perfect example.

      We can keep track of a pitcher’s wins and losses but it hardly gives us a good read on the quality of the pitcher and it’s not a good judge of a pitcher’s performance.

    11. Kamieniecki
      August 16th, 2013 | 2:57 pm

      MJ Recanati wrote:

      There are plenty of stats we have that add very little value…
      We can keep track of a pitcher’s wins and losses but it hardly gives us a good read on the quality of the pitcher and it’s not a good judge of a pitcher’s performance.

      Not the point.

    12. Goose
      August 16th, 2013 | 4:20 pm

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      If wins or losses don’t matter for pitchers, especially starting pitchers, then why charge them with a win or a loss, or have the statistic? The game would be no different tomorrow if pitchers were no longer charged with wins and losses.

      Agreed. There are better measures of a pitcher’s performance today than there were in the 1880s, but there should be a pitcher of record to a game, and the statistic still has meaning, for starters in particular. It’s all about winning in the end and if nothing else, a pitcher of record underscores the position’s significance.

      The team lost 46.2% of its games when Hughes was the pitcher of record, and only 37.5% of its games when Hughes was not the pitcher of record.

    13. Mr. October
      August 16th, 2013 | 4:48 pm

      MJ Recanati wrote:

      The Yankees are getting #5 production right now.

      The Yankees are getting #69 production right now.

    14. Sweet Lou
      August 16th, 2013 | 7:57 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      The Yankees are getting #69 production right now.

      @ Mr. October:
      Are you suggesting Phil Hughes sucks?

    15. FakeGeneMichaels
      August 16th, 2013 | 8:35 pm

      Sweet Lou wrote:

      Mr. October wrote:The Yankees are getting #69 production right now. @ Mr. October:
      Are you suggesting Phil Hughes sucks?

      That’s putting it mildly!!.:) But its the right call october!.. All I can say is THANK GOD his contract is up!

    16. Mr. October
      August 16th, 2013 | 10:06 pm

      FakeGeneMichaels wrote:

      That’s putting it mildly!!.:) But its the right call october!.. All I can say is THANK GOD his contract is up!

      @ FakeGeneMichaels:
      Thanks.

      So there’s not a problem with someone’s logical reasoning if they were to look at Hughes’ numbers since 2007, and assert he sucks as a starting pitcher on the bases of SEVEN YEARS of statistics as some might suggest, correct?

      In other words, is there problem with someone’s logical reasoning if they were to assert the Yankees’ no. 3 starters AS A WHOLE in the postseason from 2005-12 sucked on the basis of EIGHT YEARS of postseason statistics, as some might suggest?
      Of course, it might have been that the starters were excellent pitchers and the team was unlucky with their no. 3 starters in SEVEN CONSECUTIVE POSTSEASONS, but that’s not the case either – one of those nos. 3 was Hughes, right?

      CashmanApologist wrote:

      Saying that [starting pitchers] were lousy [starting pitchers] because they pitched lousy… is an analysis that analyzes very little. This is circular logic.

      @ Evan3457:

    17. Kamieniecki
      August 17th, 2013 | 8:16 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      So there’s not a problem with someone’s logical reasoning if they were to look at Hughes’ numbers since 2007, and assert he sucks as a starting pitcher on the bases of SEVEN YEARS of statistics as some might suggest, correct?

      That would depend on what constitutes a postseason E.R.A. for a starting pitcher that sucks. If a postseason E.R.A. above 5.00 as a starter is the criterion, then Hughes (4.62 E.R.A.) did not suck as a postseason starter.

      Mr. October wrote:

      In other words, is there problem with someone’s logical reasoning if they were to assert the Yankees’ no. 3 starters AS A WHOLE in the postseason from 2005-12 sucked on the basis of EIGHT YEARS of postseason statistics, as some might suggest?

      If a postseason E.R.A. above 5.00 as a starter is the criterion, then the Yankees’ no. 3 starters (5.22 E.R.A.) sucked as a whole in the postseason from 2005-12 sucked as starters.

      If postseason starters as a whole had an E.R.A. above 5.00 over eight postseasons, the postseason starters as a whole sucked.
      Brian Cashman’s no. 3 postseason starters as a whole from 2005-12 had a 5.22 E.R.A.

      Therefore, an a-hole’s no. 3 postseason starters as a whole from 2005-12 sucked.

      This would not appear to be circular logic.
      @ FakeGeneMichaels:
      @ Evan3457:
      @ Raf:

    18. alexp1984
      August 21st, 2013 | 6:47 pm

      Talk about misleading… Take a look at other pitchers with similar ERAs. Nobodies win % is that low. In fact, take a look at Sabathia, a guy who pitches with basically the same fielders/batters and has almost the same exact ERA. He’s 11-10!!

      Read this from BleacherReport. Great stuff on the meaning(less) stat called wins

      http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/642360-mlb-why-wins-are-an-insignificant-and-irrelevant-pitching-statistic

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