• Same Old Yankees

    Posted by on December 22nd, 2013 · Comments (34)

    Via Joel Sherman

    The Yankees have accomplished the near impossible — they had the oldest player in the majors (Mariano Rivera) and the oldest starter (Andy Pettitte) retire and yet somehow have gotten older this offseason.

    Thus, the Yankees saw one of their biggest problems — the decay physically and statistically in older players — and doubled down on it rather than run away. This is what happens when you have a putrid farm system combined with a never-rebuild philosophy combined with hundreds of millions of dollars to spend. You buy for today, the heck with tomorrow — and, by the way, today is no given either with this much seniority.

    Because this comes at a time when seemingly more effective PED testing has coincided with fewer older players performing well, which only has elevated the value of above-average players in their 20s. Yet, a week after pitchers and catchers arrive at George M. Steinbrenner Field in February, Brian McCann will turn 30, meaning the Yankees will not project a starting position player in his 20s.

    Can this work? Maybe. The Yankees are not employing older bums, but players with significant pedigree. However, the problem — like last year — is sheer volume. Maybe a few Yankees graybeards will recall their prime, though two who excelled in 2013 — Rivera and Pettitte — are now gone. But the chances six or seven perform at a high level are not good. And there are no talented youngsters ready to step in to provide quality and energy.

    You know, the Yankees in 2014 will be even older than the 1983 Philadelphia Phillies.

    Comments on Same Old Yankees

    1. Scout
      December 22nd, 2013 | 10:35 am

      I think we already knew this.

    2. redbug
      December 22nd, 2013 | 12:40 pm

      “the Yankees will not project a starting position player in his 20s.”

      That’s pretty awful.

    3. Mr. October
      December 22nd, 2013 | 6:54 pm

      At least the 1983 Philadelphia Phillies won a pennant.

    4. McMillan
      December 22nd, 2013 | 7:23 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      At least the 1983 Philadelphia Phillies won a pennant.

      The 1983 Phillies were second in the League in E.R.A.; that’s not going to be the case with the 2014 “All Or Nothing Big Hairy Gray-Bearded Monster Team That Mashes,” that Cashman took from the pages of the “Gene Michael playbook.”

      The 1983 World Champion Birds of Baltimore were also second in the League in E.R.A… what a coincidence.

    5. Evan3457
      December 22nd, 2013 | 7:25 pm

      The 1983 Phillies were 3rd in the NL in runs scored. The Orioles were 2nd in the AL in runs scored.

    6. KPOcala
      December 22nd, 2013 | 8:33 pm

      Come on, those guys are in their sixties……………. ;)

    7. PHMDen
      December 22nd, 2013 | 10:38 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      The 1983 Phillies were 3rd in the NL in runs scored. The Orioles were 2nd in the AL in runs scored.

      Cashman’s Wheeze Kids have a much better chance of finishing 3rd in runs scored than 2nd, or even 10th in ERA. The 1987 Twins won with a team that was below 10th in ERA, so it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility, but there were 2 series back then, not 3.

      Mark Teixeiras, Jacoby Ellsburys, and Carlos Beltrans become available on the free agent market much more frequently than CC Sabathias and Masahiro Tanakas, that’s the problem. That’s why you need a system that develops more pitching than one David Robertson and Tyler Clippard every 10 years.

      Even in the 1980s, the Yankees were able to land a Rickey Henderson with four young pitchers.

    8. Kamieniecki
      December 22nd, 2013 | 10:49 pm

      @ PHMDen:
      As Wile Evan Coyote, Super Genius, has explained in the past: it’s against the Yankees’ “corporate philosophy,” “organizational philosophy,” and “business plan” to do well in the amateur draft, so Cashman’s hands are tied.

      cc:
      @ Evan3457

    9. McMillan
      December 22nd, 2013 | 11:08 pm

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      … it’s against the Yankees’ “corporate philosophy,” “organizational philosophy,” and “business plan” to do well in the amateur draft, so Cashman’s hands are tied.

      I thought I read somewhere that Cashman’s hands were tied by Louise Meanwell???

    10. McMillan
      December 23rd, 2013 | 9:20 pm

      Mariano Rivera was the New York Yankees’ closer from 1997-2013, and retired at the age of 44. Does the New York Yankees’ G.M. have a replacement for Rivera as of Dec., 2013?

      Brian “Our Torpedoes Are Locked And Loaded” Cashman has on his sonar a 36-year-old free agent closer who failed a physical with the Baltimore Orioles. Get your checkbook out, Hal.

    11. Mr. October
      December 23rd, 2013 | 9:39 pm

      PHMDen wrote:

      Even in the 1980s, the Yankees were able to land a Rickey Henderson with four young pitchers.

      Four young pitchers AND a very good outfield prospect; in 2013, Cashman doesn’t have the trade chips to acquire Joba Chamberlain from Detroit.

    12. Evan3457
      December 24th, 2013 | 6:43 am

      PHMDen wrote:

      Evan3457 wrote:
      The 1983 Phillies were 3rd in the NL in runs scored. The Orioles were 2nd in the AL in runs scored.
      Cashman’s Wheeze Kids have a much better chance of finishing 3rd in runs scored than 2nd, or even 10th in ERA. The 1987 Twins won with a team that was below 10th in ERA, so it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility, but there were 2 series back then, not 3.
      Mark Teixeiras, Jacoby Ellsburys, and Carlos Beltrans become available on the free agent market much more frequently than CC Sabathias and Masahiro Tanakas, that’s the problem. That’s why you need a system that develops more pitching than one David Robertson and Tyler Clippard every 10 years.
      Even in the 1980s, the Yankees were able to land a Rickey Henderson with four young pitchers.

      Jose Rijo mostly.

      But you know, I actually agree with this.

    13. Evan3457
      December 24th, 2013 | 6:44 am

      McMillan wrote:

      Mariano Rivera was the New York Yankees’ closer from 1997-2013, and retired at the age of 44. Does the New York Yankees’ G.M. have a replacement for Rivera as of Dec., 2013?
      Brian “Our Torpedoes Are Locked And Loaded” Cashman has on his sonar a 36-year-old free agent closer who failed a physical with the Baltimore Orioles. Get your checkbook out, Hal.

      He says he passed the physical. We’ll see.

    14. Evan3457
      December 24th, 2013 | 6:51 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      @ PHMDen:
      As Wile Evan Coyote, Super Genius, has explained in the past: it’s against the Yankees’ “corporate philosophy,” “organizational philosophy,” and “business plan” to do well in the amateur draft, so Cashman’s hands are tied.
      cc:
      @ Evan3457

      cc…is that an acronym for posting complete crap?

      If so, you’ve corrected annotated your own reply, as I never said that, or anything like that. But the only way you can actually win an argument these days is to make up strawmen, so there’s that.

      cc…hmmm….
      cacaphonic crazy personas?
      cretinous chump?

      Oh, wait, of course! It’s so obvious…

      clownish clodhoppers!
      http://madhattermagicshop.com/magicshop/images/model24.jpg

    15. Kamieniecki
      December 24th, 2013 | 7:16 am

      McMillan wrote:

      Brian “Our Torpedoes Are Locked And Loaded” Cashman has on his sonar…

      The average bottle-nosed dolphin has more intelligence than Cashman…

    16. Kamieniecki
      December 24th, 2013 | 7:21 am

      McMillan wrote:

      The 1983 Phillies were second in the League in E.R.A.; that’s not going to be the case with the 2014 “All Or Nothing Big Hairy Gray-Bearded Monster Team That Mashes,” that Cashman took from the pages of the “Gene Michael playbook.”

      The 1983 World Champion Birds of Baltimore were also second in the League in E.R.A… what a coincidence.

      A postseason rotation of Sabathia, Kuroda, and Nova is going to need a lineup of nine (9) Carlos Beltrans to win a pennant, and this team has only one (1); 83.75% of all postseason series played since 1995 have been won by teams with starting pitchers who yielded fewer ERs than opposing SPs.

    17. Kamieniecki
      December 24th, 2013 | 7:32 am

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Jose Rijo mostly.

      But you know, I actually agree with this.

      Rijo mostly, but Howell, Birtsas, and Plunk all had very good-to-excellent arms…

    18. McMillan
      December 24th, 2013 | 7:44 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      The average bottle-nosed dolphin has more intelligence than Cashman…

      That’s true; however, Cashman has a much better “work ethic” than the average bottlenose dolphin; that’s how Cashman went from being a U.P.S. package handler to an Assistant G. M. with the New York Yankees, a M.L.B. franchise owned by a personal friend and business associate of his father’s, in his early 20s – it was “George Costanza’s” “work ethic.”

    19. McMillan
      December 24th, 2013 | 7:51 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      83.75% of all postseason series played since 1995 have been won by teams with starting pitchers who yielded fewer ERs than opposing SPs.

      @ Kamieniecki:
      “Again, this is post hoc ergo propter hoc. Either that, or your stating a tautology: the team that plays better in the series wins the series…” “Prove to me that it’s the pitching, and not the hitting, which determines who wins.”

    20. McMillan
      December 24th, 2013 | 7:52 am

      Evan3457 wrote:

      But you know, I actually agree with this.

      @ Evan3457:
      Whatever the new medication is – stick with it.

    21. Kamieniecki
      December 24th, 2013 | 8:02 am

      McMillan wrote:

      “Prove to me that it’s the pitching, and not the hitting, which determines who wins.”

      Since 1995, or the advent of the L.D.S., regular season nos. 1-3 starters as a whole have a substantially-lower postseason E.R.A. than nos. 4-5 starters as a whole. I tried to explain the significance of these statistics to a high school math teacher once, but he didn’t understand the game either…

    22. McMillan
      December 24th, 2013 | 8:13 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      Since 1995, or the advent of the L.D.S., regular season nos. 1-3 starters as a whole have a substantially-lower postseason E.R.A. than nos. 4-5 starters as a whole. I tried to explain the significance of these statistics to a high school math teacher once, but he didn’t understand the game either…

      @ Kamieniecki:
      Bullspit! Nos. 1-3 starters having a “substantially-lower” postseason Earned Run Average than nos. 4-5 starters for a period of only two decades, or slightly more 130 postseason series, proves nothing! You’re trying to nuke Cashman! As long as you keep coming back with the same nonsense, Evan/The Black Knight and I are going to refute it! Admit defeat!

    23. Evan3457
      December 24th, 2013 | 2:55 pm

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      McMillan wrote:
      “Prove to me that it’s the pitching, and not the hitting, which determines who wins.”
      Since 1995, or the advent of the L.D.S., regular season nos. 1-3 starters as a whole have a substantially-lower postseason E.R.A. than nos. 4-5 starters as a whole. I tried to explain the significance of these statistics to a high school math teacher once, but he didn’t understand the game either…

      And what you don’t understand is that regardless of what their regular season ERAs are, you can’t predict the outcome of the post-season playoffs from them. And THAT is what makes it a crapshoot.

      The 2013 ALCS just re-proved you wrong. You’ll simply never admit it.

    24. Evan3457
      December 24th, 2013 | 2:56 pm

      McMillan wrote:

      Kamieniecki wrote:
      Since 1995, or the advent of the L.D.S., regular season nos. 1-3 starters as a whole have a substantially-lower postseason E.R.A. than nos. 4-5 starters as a whole. I tried to explain the significance of these statistics to a high school math teacher once, but he didn’t understand the game either…
      @ Kamieniecki:
      Bullspit! Nos. 1-3 starters having a “substantially-lower” postseason Earned Run Average than nos. 4-5 starters for a period of only two decades, or slightly more 130 postseason series, proves nothing! You’re trying to nuke Cashman! As long as you keep coming back with the same nonsense, Evan/The Black Knight and I are going to refute it! Admit defeat!

      How pathetic. Sad.

    25. Mr. October
      December 24th, 2013 | 6:47 pm

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      83.75% of all postseason series played since 1995 have been won by teams with starting pitchers who yielded fewer ERs than opposing SPs.

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      Since 1995… regular season nos. 1-3 starters as a whole have a substantially-lower postseason E.R.A. than nos. 4-5 starters as a whole…

      If Team Cashman had more “no. 1-2 caliber” starting pitchers, or pitchers who pitched like no. 1-2 starters in the post-season (eg Orlando Hernandez), then Team Cashman would have won closer to 83.75% of the post-season series it played in from 2005-13 with a Hall of Fame closer, than only 45.50%, and more than one AL pennant.

      Team Michael won closer to 83.75% of the post-season series it played in from 1996-2001 (87.50%) with a Hall of Fame closer, and won FIVE AL pennants; not a lot of 39-42 year-old starting pitchers with an ERAs of 5.00 or more on Team Michael.

      But if you think you can explain this to Evan, then I have a stadium in The Bronx I’d like to sell you.

    26. Kamieniecki
      December 24th, 2013 | 6:55 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      But if you think you can explain this to Evan, then I have a stadium in The Bronx I’d like to sell you.

      @ Mr. October:
      Isn’t Evan the guy who thinks Jacoby Ellsbury is worth $30 million/year?

    27. Evan3457
      December 25th, 2013 | 4:09 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      Mr. October wrote:
      But if you think you can explain this to Evan, then I have a stadium in The Bronx I’d like to sell you.
      @ Mr. October:
      Isn’t Evan the guy who thinks Jacoby Ellsbury is worth $30 million/year?

      No, Evan is the guy quoting Fangraphs saying Ellsbury’s marginal value was $28.9 million last year. Go argue with them. See if they respond to any of your six personalities.

    28. Evan3457
      December 25th, 2013 | 4:12 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      Kamieniecki wrote:
      83.75% of all postseason series played since 1995 have been won by teams with starting pitchers who yielded fewer ERs than opposing SPs.
      Kamieniecki wrote:
      Since 1995… regular season nos. 1-3 starters as a whole have a substantially-lower postseason E.R.A. than nos. 4-5 starters as a whole…
      If Team Cashman had more “no. 1-2 caliber” starting pitchers, or pitchers who pitched like no. 1-2 starters in the post-season (eg Orlando Hernandez), then Team Cashman would have won closer to 83.75% of the post-season series it played in from 2005-13 with a Hall of Fame closer, than only 45.50%, and more than one AL pennant.
      Team Michael won closer to 83.75% of the post-season series it played in from 1996-2001 (87.50%) with a Hall of Fame closer, and won FIVE AL pennants; not a lot of 39-42 year-old starting pitchers with an ERAs of 5.00 or more on Team Michael.
      But if you think you can explain this to Evan, then I have a stadium in The Bronx I’d like to sell you.

      Team “Michael” then includes the 2001 pennant winners, in which the only starter acquired by Michael was Andy Pettitte. Ditto for the 2000 World Champions.

    29. Evan3457
      December 25th, 2013 | 4:13 am

      Actually, Pettitte was drafted under Peterson, not Michael.
      Michael did probably keep Pettitte from being traded away, though.

    30. Kamieniecki
      December 25th, 2013 | 10:58 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      No, Evan is the guy quoting Fangraphs saying Ellsbury’s marginal value was $28.9 million last year. Go argue with them. See if they respond to any of your six personalities.

      Correction: Evan is the idiot who quoted Ellsbury’s marginal value as $28.9 million last year. What was Cano’s marginal value in 2013? $37.4 million?

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Team “Michael” then includes the 2001 pennant winners, in which the only starter acquired by Michael was Andy Pettitte. Ditto for the 2000 World Champions.

      From the archives:

      McMillan wrote:

      In 2001:

      Boehringer,
      Brosius,
      Jeter,
      Knoblauch,
      Martinez,
      Mendoza,
      O’Neill,
      Pettitte,
      Posada,
      Rivera,
      Sojo,
      Spencer,
      Stanton, and
      Williams all played for the team prior to [Brian McGnome Cashman] being given the title of Sr. Vice President and G.M. 4 years earlier in 1998.

      @ Evan3457:
      Hernandez was not a signing Cashman can be credited with, as you yourself have acknowledged in the past – or are you going to lie about that one as well? I know exactly which thread that comment was made in…

    31. Kamieniecki
      December 25th, 2013 | 11:09 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      But if you think you can explain this to Evan, then I have a stadium in The Bronx I’d like to sell you.

      @ Mr. October:
      According to Evan, you can’t say that Team Cashman’s nos. 3-4 postseason starters from 2005-13 as a whole weren’t “championship-caliber” nos. 3-4 postseason starters as a whole on the bases of their postseason numbers as a whole and in comparison the postseason performance of nos. 4-5 starters from 1995-2013 as a whole, because that would be “reasoning from the results.”

      This is the same guy who will be up all night averaging the wins, losses, and E.R.A.s of Sabathia, Kuroda, Nova, and Hughes in 2013 to “project” what Tanaka’s numbers will be in The Bronx in 2014…

    32. McMillan
      December 25th, 2013 | 11:20 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Reasoning from the results!

      To say that Kei Igawa sucked as a Major League pitcher because he sucked in all of his Major League appearances is an analysis that analyzes very little! He was demoted to AAA Scranton/Wilkes Barre before all of the evidence was in! Prove to me it was Igawa’s pitching, and not the hitting, in Igawa’s 16 Major League appearances that was responsible for his 6.66 E.R.A. Prove It! Or Admit defeat!

      You can’t argue with the Black Knight…

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

    33. Mr. October
      December 25th, 2013 | 11:36 pm

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      [Evan] is the same guy who will be up all night averaging the wins, losses, and E.R.A.s of Sabathia, Kuroda, Nova, and Hughes in 2013 to “project” what Tanaka’s numbers will be in The Bronx in 2014…

      He has nothing else to do.

    34. Kamieniecki
      December 25th, 2013 | 11:49 pm

      McMillan wrote:

      You can’t argue with the Black Knight…

      The Black Knight has a yellow belt in logic. But does mean well, when he’s not trying to re-frame an argument he has lost, or lying about comments he posted Jul., 2013-Aug., 2013.
      @ Evan3457

    Leave a reply

    You must be logged in to post a comment.