• Maddux, Glavine, Thomas Elected To The Hall Of Fame – Biggio Just Missed

    Posted by on January 8th, 2014 · Comments (20)

    Feel free to discuss the result in the comments section here.

    Comments on Maddux, Glavine, Thomas Elected To The Hall Of Fame – Biggio Just Missed

    1. Evan3457
      January 8th, 2014 | 5:50 pm

      I think Biggio’s a Hall of Famer. But he’s not so overwhelming a candidate, given the history of voting for the Hall, that it’s unfair that he has to wait a ballot or two. If he gets voted into the Hall for 2015 or 2016, that seems OK to me.

      The other three seem pretty obvious to me. Those who didn’t vote for Maddux should have their HOF voting priveleges taken away.

    2. redbug
      January 8th, 2014 | 6:25 pm

      I’ve been looking forward to the vote because I think we’ll finally get a decision on Arod now. I bet it’s on Friday.

    3. Mr. October
      January 8th, 2014 | 7:42 pm

      It’s a surprise Biggio didn’t get in; he’s probably the best .281 hitter to ever play the game…

    4. Kamieniecki
      January 8th, 2014 | 8:09 pm

      And it’s incredible that all of those All-Star game appearances in only 20 years (7), and all of those 200-hit seasons Biggio compiled (1), did not get him into the Hall.

    5. Evan3457
      January 9th, 2014 | 2:49 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      It’s a surprise Biggio didn’t get in; he’s probably the best .281 hitter to ever play the game…

      Well, actually, no.

      The top three players with a career batting average of .281 or lower, arranged in order of career WAR, are:

      1. Rickey Henderson (.279, 111 WAR)
      2. Mike Schmidt (.267, 107 WAR)
      3. Joe Morgan (.271, 100 WAR)

      Biggio ranks 23rd on that list. 13 players ahead of him are in the Hall, 9 are not.

      Of the players whose career batting averages round to exactly .281, Biggio is 2nd in career WAR, behind Scott Rolen, who isn’t in the Hall, and isn’t likely to be. Biggio does have more WAR than three Hall of Famers who retired with a career BAVG of .281: Willie Stargell, Harry Hooper and Rick Ferrell.

    6. Evan3457
      January 9th, 2014 | 2:53 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      And it’s incredible that all of those All-Star game appearances in only 20 years (7), and all of those 200-hit seasons Biggio compiled (1), did not get him into the Hall.

      Well, I wouldn’t be too upset. No player who’s ever gotten this close to being voted into the Hall has ever been denied by the writers until he was off the ballot.

      From Tom Tango:


      Jack Morris will make the Hall of Fame.
      And probably Lee Smith will as well.

      The player with the highest share of ballots to not (eventually) make the Hall of Fame was Gil Hodges, at 63% of votes at his peak. Jack Morris received 68% last year. He’d be the new leader. But he won’t be for long, because the Veteran’s Committee will vote him in eventually.

      After Hodges (*), second place is Tony Oliva at 47%. Do you know what this means? It means it’s completely ridiculous to make a player need 75% of the votes. As soon as you hit 50, you will eventually make it. Why make the player wait and wait and wait? To be sure? Well, other than Gil Hodges, everyone made it in!

      Current players who passed the 50% mark: Jack Morris, Lee Smith, Jeff Bagwell, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines. All are pretty much guaranteed enshrinement by BBWAA or the Vets.

    7. baseballbob
      January 9th, 2014 | 8:07 am

      I’m a little surprised that Frank Thomas made it on the first try. Some other guys from his era (Bagwell, Piazza, etc.) seem to be getting lumped in with the PEDs users without any definitive link). Still, I do think he belongs. Also surprised that Jeff Kent didn’t get more support. And why would someone vote for Jacque Jones or JT Snow?

    8. McMillan
      January 9th, 2014 | 12:06 pm

      Biggio was a great player, but the Hall of Fame is for players who were more than great. Biggio belongs in the Office of the General Manager of the New York Yankees more than he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

      Evan3457 wrote:

      1. Rickey Henderson (.279, 111 BS)
      2. Mike Schmidt (.267, 107 BS)
      3. Joe Morgan (.271, 100 BS)

      It’s nonsense to compare Biggio to these three players. The only thing Biggio has in common with Morgan is that the two of them were better second basemen than Cashman, and both better-qualified to be the G.M. of a M.L.B. franchise than Cashman. Morgan is also a 10-time All-Star, and 2-time N.L. M.V.P., who did not play in the P.E.D. era…

      Biggio’s not in the H.O.F., and it’s not because “he was doomed by bad luck with RISP” for 20 years, like “Cashman’s postseason teams from 2004-07, and 2010-12″ – it’s because he probably doesn’t belong there, like some other players in the Hall, who don’t belong there…

      Evan3457 wrote:

      From Tom Tango:

      What was Cash’s opinion?

    9. Mr. October
      January 9th, 2014 | 2:05 pm

      I don’t agree with Francesa very often, but his description of Biggio as a “compiler” who didn’t have enough “HOF-caliber” seasons to qualify for induction, and who is “not a HOFer,” during yesterday’s broadcast summed it up pretty well for me… Schmidt’s dropoff was in the last 2 seasons of his career only, and Henderson was the greatest leadoff hitter of all-time. I’d put Morgan and the Mariners’ 2nd baseman in the top 10 of all-time.

    10. Evan3457
      January 9th, 2014 | 6:52 pm

      McMillan wrote:

      1. Rickey Henderson (.279, 111 BS)
      2. Mike Schmidt (.267, 107 BS)
      3. Joe Morgan (.271, 100 BS)
      It’s nonsense to compare Biggio to these three players.

      No spit, Sherlock? You mean to say that players with 35-46 more career WAR are much better that players with 35-46 less WAR? I’m just floored by your grasp of the incredibly obvious.

      However, that wasn’t the point of mentioning them.

      The only thing Biggio has in common with Morgan is that the two of them were better second basemen than Cashman

      And in two years of less, it’s very likely they’ll have another thing in common: they’ll both be in the Hall of Fame

      and both better-qualified to be the G.M. of a M.L.B. franchise than Cashman.

      Completely irrelevant.

      Morgan is also a 10-time All-Star, and 2-time N.L. M.V.P., who did not play in the P.E.D. era…

      …and the “Joe Morgan Line” doesn’t determine who is or isn’t a Hall of Famer, or even whether or not a player who spent most of his career at second base is a Hall of Famer. It it were, then Charlie Gehringer wouldn’t be a Hall of Famer, and Tony Lazzeri wouldn’t be a Hall of Famer and Frankie Frisch wouldn’t be a Hall of Famer, and Ryne Sandberg wouldn’t, and Roberto Alomar wouldn’t and Joe Gordon wouldn’t and Bobby Doerr wouldn’t and Nellie Fox wouldn’t, and so on.

      Biggio’s not in the H.O.F., and it’s not because “he was doomed by bad luck with RISP” for 20 years, like “Cashman’s postseason teams from 2004-07, and 2010-12″

      …another idiotic strawman in lieu of an argument, and also completely irrelevant…

      – it’s because he probably doesn’t belong there, like some other players in the Hall, who don’t belong there…

      By whose standards? Yours? Who cares?
      No, Craig Biggio wasn’t voted into the Hall of Fame in this most recent election because out of 571 ballots, he only got 427 votes instead of the 429 needed.

      And, as Tango pointed out in the quote above, EVERY SINGLE PLAYER who ever received that high a percentage of votes needed by the BBWAA has eventually been enshrined.

      What was Cash’s opinion?

      Well, gee, you’re the guy who was quoting Nate Silver as proof of your position in a thread a while back. I’d have thought you’d have heard of “Tom Tango”. But if you haven’t, here you go:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Tango

      Tango works as a consultant for several National Hockey League teams, and has worked for Major League Baseball. Tango has worked for the Seattle Mariners and Toronto Blue Jays as a statistical analysis consultant. As of 2013, he works exclusively for the Chicago Cubs in a similar role.

    11. Kamieniecki
      January 9th, 2014 | 7:21 pm

      McMillan wrote:

      Biggio’s not in the H.O.F.

      McMillan wrote:

      Biggio’s not in the H.O.F.

      I’m happy he’s not; he shouldn’t be in the Hall.

      Whether or not Biggio will be in the Hall, and whether or not Biggio should be in the Hall, are two different questions.

      In his last eight years, he hit above .281 once, “compiling” 3000 hits to “ensure” his place in Cooperstown – he had more than 191 hits once in the entirety of his career… if Biggio injured his ankle and missed the 2005 season at Jeter’s age, he finishes his career closer to 2900 hits.

      Induction shouldn’t be automatic, or almost automatic, for averaging 150 hits for 20 seasons, or averaging 14 wins for 23 seasons and winning 20 games only once, as Sutton did.

    12. Mr. October
      January 11th, 2014 | 11:47 am

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      In his last eight years, he hit above .281 once, “compiling” 3000 hits to “ensure” his place in Cooperstown – he had more than 191 hits once in the entirety of his career… if Biggio injured his ankle and missed the 2005 season at Jeter’s age, he finishes his career closer to 2900 hits.

      In his last EIGHT years, Molitor hit above .300 SIX TIMES to get to 3300 hits, batting 25 points higher than Biggio for his career. The Ignitor hit .341 in the year he got to 3000. In Jeter’s last EIGHT years, he hit above .300 FIVE TIMES to get to 3300 hits, batting 31 points higher than Biggio for his career. Jeter hit .297 in the year he got to 3000. Biggio was a great player. Jeter and Molitor are/were HOFers.

      Kamieniecki wrote:

      Induction shouldn’t be automatic, or almost automatic, for averaging 150 hits for 20 seasons, or averaging 14 wins for 23 seasons and winning 20 games only once, as Sutton did.

      Mussina’s not in the HOF, and his career numbers are comparable to Jim Palmer’s; he’s not in the HOF because he pitched “only” 18 years and didn’t compile more Wins like Sutton did, or didn’t have more 20-win seasons or Cy Young awards like Palmer had. Moose was a better pitcher than Sutton, and he’s not in. Biggio can get in line behind Moose, and a lot of other players.

    13. Evan3457
      January 11th, 2014 | 3:50 pm

      Biggio will be in 2015, or 2016.

      And he’ll deserve it.

    14. Kamieniecki
      January 11th, 2014 | 4:59 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      Biggio was a great player. Jeter and Molitor are/were HOFers
      .

      Agreed. Biggio comes up short, or should.

    15. McMillan
      January 11th, 2014 | 6:15 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Well, gee, you’re the guy who was quoting Nate Silver as proof of your position in a thread a while back.

      @ Evan3457:
      No I didn’t. I’ve never quoted Nate Silver on anything. And there are two ‘e’s in “privileges,” not three:

      Evan3457 wrote:

      … priveleges…

    16. Evan3457
      January 12th, 2014 | 4:29 am

      McMillan wrote:

      Evan3457 wrote:
      No I didn’t. I’ve never quoted Nate Silver on anything.

      Sure you did, Sybil. Maybe not under the name “McMillan”, but it’s still all you.

    17. Evan3457
      January 12th, 2014 | 4:30 am

      By the way, how come all of your various personas have stopped using the @ thing, all @ the same time?

    18. McMillan
      January 12th, 2014 | 1:52 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      Once again, I did not… I’ve never quoted Nate Silver on anything.

    19. PHMDen
      January 12th, 2014 | 2:27 pm

      @ McMillan,
      @ Kamieniecki:
      I watched Jeff Kent and Biggio both play and I’d take Kent over Biggio – and I’m not even comfortable with Kent as a hall of famer. He wasn’t in the class of the “elite of the elite” but he’s a pretty strong candidate.

    20. Mr. October
      January 16th, 2014 | 7:29 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Biggio does have more WAR than three Hall of Famers who retired with a career BAVG of .281: Willie Stargell, Harry Hooper and Rick Ferrell.

      In re-reading the content of this thread, it occurred to me that I had forgotten Biggio had more WAR than Harry Hooper – that’s the best argument for his induction into the HOF I’ve heard so far. Biggio can get in line behind Mike Mussina, and a lot of other players who might, or might not, belong in the HOF, but I repeat myself.

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