• Romine Moving?

    Posted by on March 8th, 2014 · Comments (73)

    I guess the Yankees think he’s soft, injury prone, or can’t hit – or some combination therein.

    Comments on Romine Moving?

    1. Corey
      March 8th, 2014 | 9:05 am

      Or that he’s just the ugly duckling in a group that contains Cervelli, Murphy (I can’t stand saying John Ryan), and Sanchez. If he can net any value, sign me up.

    2. #15
      March 8th, 2014 | 3:53 pm

      @ Corey:
      Agreed… he’s the most expendable.

    3. Mr. October
      March 8th, 2014 | 4:03 pm

      @ Corey:
      cout << "Agreed.";

    4. KPOcala
      March 8th, 2014 | 6:38 pm

      Off-topic, but I find it irritating as hell that the Yanks haven’t reeled in Drew, and aren’t getting involved with Santana, if only to drive the price up. He wouldn’t be the worst guy to take a one year flier on, and would give the Yankees some serious pitching depth. “For a few dollars more”. Hal & Cashman, for shame!

    5. #15
      March 8th, 2014 | 10:15 pm

      @ KPOcala:
      If Drew could be had for Cruz type deal at this point… yep, they’d be stupid to not grab him. Boras may be waiting for an injury-related opening.

    6. Mr. October
      March 9th, 2014 | 8:16 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      Hal & Cashman, for shame!

      @ KPOcala:
      You sound like Robinson Cano, who’s already complaining in Seattle that the Mariners were not more active in the free agent market, and did not sign Jimenez, Cruz, and Ervin Santana this offseason…

      $500 million on free agents and the highest payroll in the AL isn’t enough – Cashman still needs Drew and Santana? Maybe Hal needs a new GM who can put together a team capable of winning 90-95 games for less than $230 million?

      The Suzyn Waldman Quote of the Day for March 9, 2014: “Brian Cashman stockpiles pitchers in the minor leagues just in case.” Wile E. Cashman, Super Genius.

    7. KPOcala
      March 9th, 2014 | 11:19 pm

      @ Mr. October: The Yankees are a business, nothing more or less. I could care less “how much”, or if a player is “homegrown” or has to be acquired through free agency. I don’t get your “point”, unless you are getting paid Yankee dividends, or have a bet as to the Yankees payroll. Drew is clearly the “piece”, the Yankees need to sign him. One point though, regarding players. There “are” players, past and present that if the Yankees were to sign, I’d stop following the team until said player moved on. Otherwise, I have no interest in Hal saving on payroll. And I’m also mindful that winning WS brings in big money, for years, for the owners. So please, spare me.

    8. Mr. October
      March 10th, 2014 | 3:55 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      I have no interest in Hal saving on payroll.

      I have no interest in Hal saving on payroll, either; if he wants to spend more than $250 million-per year to win a championship every year for the next ten years, I have only one problem with it: in the 2014-23 Major League Baseball environment and marketplace, even more than $250 million-per year might not be enough for this “stooge:” http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/kooky-cashman-claim-yanks-gm-plotted-mistress-suit-claims-article-1.1235442

      The Yankees are a business – so why not run the Yankees like a business, and hire a true GM?

      A true GM who can field one of the best teams in baseball, with one of the best pitching staffs in baseball, with the highest payroll in baseball, like the Dodgers, for example? Think of what the true GM who has built an odds-on favorite to win the World Series in 2014 (http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10573886/detroit-tigers-world-series-favorite-mlb) could do with the highest payroll in baseball in The Bronx, with Cashman tending bar wearing a mullet-bandanna wig in the Mohegan Sun Sports Bar in center field where he belongs?

    9. KPOcala
      March 10th, 2014 | 7:17 pm

      @ Mr. October: Fair enough. If the Yankees had their choice of ANY GM who’d you pick? More importantly though, since they don’t, who would you pick? And if you could elaborate, please do. GM’s are by the nature of the position, difficult to properly evaluate, as are farm directors, scouts, and coaches. Ray Miller and Leo Mazzone were “great” pitching coaches, or were they? Theo seemed to be “great”, or did he come at “just the right time”? Look at the NFL. Jimmy Johnson came in, and benefited for years because of the Herschel Walker trade. After that, nothing. Are GMs, coaches, etc. always as great, or bad, as they seem? Or is it possible that they have all the stars align, and they look like geniuses?Certainly there are some GMs who have done great jobs, for years, moved on and have done it again. But it also has to been taken into account that when you don’t follow another team as closely as your own, you aren’t sweating out the freak injuries, the “reaches” in the draft, players who “blossum”, or don’t. There is a lot of fan “perspective” in evaluating how their teams’ management is doing. Think back, or go back, 5-7 years and look at all the players that “The Genius” Theo had lined up and down the farm system. Maybe a dozen or more “impact players/all stars. Then see how few actually even made it to the Bigs. I’m agnostic on Cashman because I honestly don’t know what constraints he’s working under, and we do have to take into account that the Yankees, given their ticket prices MUST have a top-tiered team, always. BTW, over the past six years, the Yankees have the most wins in MLB, followed by Tampa. So….

    10. Raf
      March 10th, 2014 | 7:48 pm
    11. Raf
      March 10th, 2014 | 7:50 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      If the Yankees had their choice of ANY GM who’d you pick?

      From 2008,

      http://waswatching.com/2008/10/01/who-else-in-place-of-cashman/#comments

      Wonder what these guys have been up to? :)

    12. Mr. October
      March 10th, 2014 | 8:34 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      … If the Yankees had their choice of ANY GM who’d you pick? More importantly though, since they don’t, who would you pick? And if you could elaborate, please do… GM’s are by the nature of the position, difficult to properly evaluate, as are farm directors, scouts, and coaches.

      I disagree; I don’t believe GMs are by the nature of the position difficult to properly evaluate.

      And I’ve discussed whom I would like to see as the Yankees GM on numerous occasions in the past on this site. But it gets to the point of ridiculous when you have certain parties who will take an honest opinion on the significance of starting pitching, for example, and characterize it as an opinion that “the team with the better starting pitching always wins” for reasons only their psychologists are in a position to explain or understand…

      So, unfortunately, it’s impossible to have an honest or intelligent discussion about Cashman’s record to some extent, or on certain subjects, on this site in my opinion, and I’m not going to rehash the criticisms I’ve made in the past and substantiated with fairly straightforward and objective information compiled by myself and professional journalists – how can you have an honest discussion about Cashman’s record when some idiot is going to invariably jump in and say “payroll doesn’t matter.” How can you have a serious discussion with the involvement of someone like that? You can’t…

      To put it another way, I have not heard one argument that Cashman deserves to be the GM of this franchise in the year 2014: winning the most games in the AL for the last 6 years is not a good argument (see below); winning only one (1) AL pennant in the last 10 years with the highest payrolls in MLB “is acceptable because the team with the best regular season record has won the World Series only three times since 1995″ is not a good argument; not knowing the degree of Cashman’s autonomy behind the “Byzantine corporate structure of the New York Yankees” is not a good argument, etc. Fair enough?

      KPOcala wrote:

      BTW, over the past six years, the Yankees have the most wins in MLB, followed by Tampa. So….

      The Yankees had the most wins in the 1980s spending the most money with a GM change every 18 months or so (and with people like Murray Cook); winning the most regular season games over an 6-10 year period can be almost solely a function of money, as it was in the 1980s, and as it’s been in the 2005-2013.

      On the other hand, winning the number of games Freidman has in Tampa Bay with one of the lowest payrolls in MLB every year, and fielding the talent he has, is an extraordinary accomplishment.

      And I have not heard an argument that the Yankees can not have a top-tiered team and a top-tiered farm system for more 10 years or more with the revenues and operating income a franchise like the Yankees generate… There is no argument that the expectation for this organization should not have been a lot higher from 2005-13 than one AL pennant with the amount of money spent; the tortured reasoning that has come with those arguments has been pretty bad… And, of course, it’s always nice to be called names like”a**hole,” or worse, for calling into question that “reasoning.”

      KPOcala wrote:

      I’m agnostic on Cashman

      Well, as long as Hal Steinbrenner is content with playoff appearances, Cashman won’t be going anywhere… Cashman said he a recent interview that he’d “love to” return as GM… Great news! I was worried that a better opportunity out there might lure this great talent away from the Yankees! I’m so relieved that this little jerk would like to come back and earn $4 million-per year, or more, to attend GM meetings, sign free agents, and guide this once-great franchise to one AL Pennant every 10 years…

    13. KPOcala
      March 11th, 2014 | 9:45 am

      @ Raf: OH! Where’s all those “amazing” picks that “Stick” & and Company made? I thought they could have filled an entire All Star squad with them. I knew my memory hadn’t failed me, that the narrative was over-simplified. Raf, thanks, many thanks ;)

    14. KPOcala
      March 11th, 2014 | 9:56 am

      @ Mr. October:That wasn’t a very concise list, I didn’t jot your selections down over the years to save for posterity. I will say that if you’re griping over 1 ring in the last five years, and the best record over six, well I’ve got something to gripe about. I went 18 years without a ring, and for ten years or so, they’d be lucky to sniff the playoffs…..”oh don’t it seems to go, that you don’t know what you have ’til it’s gone……”

    15. Raf
      March 11th, 2014 | 10:23 am

      KPOcala wrote:

      @ Raf: OH! Where’s all those “amazing” picks that “Stick” & and Company made? I thought they could have filled an entire All Star squad with them. I knew my memory hadn’t failed me, that the narrative was over-simplified. Raf, thanks, many thanks

      Narratives usually are oversimplified, makes them palatable to the masses.

      The Yankees rarely have drafted well, which is odd given their resources. They’ve done better with international free agents.

    16. KPOcala
      March 11th, 2014 | 9:02 pm

      @ Raf: Raf, I’ve often wondered if the Yanks have “cheaped out” with their scouts over the years. I have no idea, what teams pay, and how many scouts they employ. But “if I” were ownership, I’d make sure that the team had the most, and the best in that critical area. My hunch is that given the money that they give free agents, the one place they’d go on the “cheap” would be the domestic scouts, especially since living conditions are more expensive here than abroad….. It is “infuriating” and one reason that I don’t crucify Cashman along with the seething masses. We’re just not privy to any GMs marching orders………

    17. KPOcala
      March 11th, 2014 | 9:15 pm

      I just read this, and thought you guys would enjoy it. I was just “coming of age” as a baseball fan, so (although in his 1974, aptly named book, “Reggie”, he is given “high praise) I can’t say I have memories of him. But the anecdotes are pretty cool. Enjoy. Steve, I hope I’m not stepping out of line here. If so, just “say”…… http://www.hardballtimes.com/tht-live/dick-green-at-the-hall/

    18. Raf
      March 11th, 2014 | 10:19 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      Raf, I’ve often wondered if the Yanks have “cheaped out” with their scouts over the years. I have no idea, what teams pay, and how many scouts they employ. But “if I” were ownership, I’d make sure that the team had the most, and the best in that critical area. My hunch is that given the money that they give free agents, the one place they’d go on the “cheap” would be the domestic scouts, especially since living conditions are more expensive here than abroad

      http://www.forbes.com/teams/new-york-yankees/

      The Yankees have no reason to go cheap.

      From 2006
      http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/international-affairs/2006/261875.html

    19. Raf
      March 11th, 2014 | 10:20 pm
    20. KPOcala
      March 11th, 2014 | 11:51 pm

      @ Raf:Raf, I agree, there’s “no reason to go cheap”, but who knows? Thanks for those links. I find it especially interesting about the names, and the raves that some of those kids were getting, “Five-tool Barry Bonds”, and all the rest. With the exception of Montero, I didn’t see any of them making the bigs, yet. Although Jose Pirelo is still in the Yankees org. and still could do “something”. Most of draft talk in professional sports is great for talk-show/ESPN/blog fodder. As to who drafts with actual “better than even” skill, especially the real young ones, I’d love to see “those” lists compiled. They probably have “random player” generators, and go with that on “draft day”….. ;)

    21. Mr. October
      March 12th, 2014 | 12:03 am

      KPOcala wrote:

      That wasn’t a very concise list, I didn’t jot your selections down over the years to save for posterity.

      @ KPOcala:
      The complete list of MLB GMs (current) I’d take over Brian Cashman:

      Alderson, Amaro, Jr., Anthopoulos, Antonetti, Beane, Byrnes, Cherington, Colletti, Daniels, DiPoto, Dombrowski, Duquette, Friedman, Hahn, Hill, Hoyer, Huntington, Jocketty, Luhnow, Melvin, Moore, Mozeliak, O’Dowd, Rizzo, Ryan, Sabean, Towers, Wren, and Zduriencik.

      I think any one of these executives could do a better job in the next ten years with $2.0-2.5 billion to spend in 2014-2023 dollars on payroll. And that the Yankees might not have drafted well at some time in the 1980s, or at any time in the past, has nothing to do with the fact that Team Cashman has drafted poorly in the last ten (10) years or more – with the exception of Cito Culver, who lined two ropes in a simulated game yesterday against a pitcher with the “best splitter in the world,” the $175 million man, Masahiro Kuroda.

    22. Evan3457
      March 12th, 2014 | 1:55 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      But it gets to the point of ridiculous when you have certain parties who will take an honest opinion on the significance of starting pitching, for example, and characterize it as an opinion that “the team with the better starting pitching always wins” for reasons only their psychologists are in a position to explain or understand…

      An honest “opinion”?
      When did you ever say it was just your opinion?
      You overstate it as a determinant factor, THE determinant factor, every time it’s discussed. I keep pointing out all the cases where the team with the better rotation loses in the post-season (including BOTH Championship Series in 2013), and you choose to call it a “narrative”.

      So, unfortunately, it’s impossible to have an honest or intelligent discussion about Cashman’s record to some extent

      Not with you it isn’t. You’ve already made up your mind a long time ago, and you interpret everything that’s happened while he’s been GM in the worst possible light, ignoring every substantive argument or mitigating circumstance.

      how can you have an honest discussion about Cashman’s record when some idiot is going to invariably jump in and say “payroll doesn’t matter.” How can you have a serious discussion with the involvement of someone like that? You can’t…

      Especially when a look at other teams with vastly superior payrolls throughout baseball history, at least in the post-draft era, shows that for the for the most part (even when the Yankees are not even part of the discussion) those teams usually fail to win it all, or even the pennant, such as the Phillies of the last few seasons, last year’s Dodgers, the Braves teams that led the NL in payroll for 6 straight seasons, with one of the greatest rotation top 3′s in baseball history, and got one title and two other pennants for their trouble, and lost playoff series after playoff series to teams with payrolls lower than theirs (sometimes 30-50% lower). The Orioles of 1998 that led MLB in payroll.

      The reasons for this are many, but the chief one is this: such teams have very high payrolls because whether they’re spending big to keep their own or to sign other top free agents, (more often than not in the attempt to eliminate risk, which is impossible, no matter how much you spend) usually, their paying for the decline phase of a player’s career.

      Cashman didn’t start the Yankees on this treadmill; it went on under many GM’s under George in the 1980′s. When they won their 4 titles in 5 years, the Yanks still had George in charge and he knew no other way to try to keep that going. So they kept going that way, growing ever larger payrolls. The treadmill will now resume, after a 2 year attempt at austerity.

      winning only one (1) AL pennant in the last 10 years with the highest payrolls in MLB “is acceptable because the team with the best regular season record has won the World Series only three times since 1995″ is not a good argument

      …it also has the advantage of an argument that’s never been made in precisely the form you state…

      not knowing the degree of Cashman’s autonomy behind the “Byzantine corporate structure of the New York Yankees” is not a good argument, etc.

      Actually, that would be (and is) an EXCELLENT argument, because:
      1) it implies that others have contributed to the circumstances you find so objectionable,
      2) and the owners know about those circumstances, whereas we, looking in from the outside, don’t know them at all,
      3) and therefore, that could explain why they haven’t yet held Cashman solely responsible for all the “crimes” you say he’s committed, and fired him.

      And I have not heard an argument that the Yankees can not have a top-tiered team and a top-tiered farm system for more 10 years or more with the revenues and operating income a franchise like the Yankees generate…

      And, at times during the last 9 years, they have had this.
      In 2011, Baseball America ranked the Yankees farm talent 5th best in MLB
      (they were ranked 22nd in 2010, by the way).
      In 2008, they were also ranked 5th. The same in 2007. (In 2006, they were 17th.)
      That’s three times in the last 9 years they were ranked 5th. In two other years, they were in the top half. Two other years, they were top 15. Two other years, they were in the 20′s.

      There is no argument that the expectation for this organization should not have been a lot higher from 2005-13 than one AL pennant with the amount of money spent

      Sure there is. Yours is the argument that cannot be made, because there is no evidence to base that on. The only other team in the Rule 4 draft era in the same situation is the Yankees of the 80′s, and after the mini-dynasty of the 70′s died, that team won only one pennant and no titles, despite spending the most money and winning the most games. So there is no empirical evidence that supports your opinion. None.

      Well, as long as Hal Steinbrenner is content with playoff appearances,

      Actually, they insist on playoff appearances every year, which is why they can’t sell off a Robbie Cano, for example, or take a down year like the Red Sox did in 2012 (and that’s ANOTHER with an uber-payroll that crashed and burned, by the way), and rebuild or re-tool or whatever you want to call it.

      Cashman won’t be going anywhere… Cashman said he a recent interview that he’d “love to” return as GM… Great news! I was worried that a better opportunity out there might lure this great talent away from the Yankees! I’m so relieved that this little jerk would like to come back and earn $4 million-per year, or more, to attend GM meetings, sign free agents, and guide this once-great franchise to one AL Pennant every 10 years…

      Well, to each his own, I guess.

    23. Evan3457
      March 12th, 2014 | 1:56 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      KPOcala wrote:
      That wasn’t a very concise list, I didn’t jot your selections down over the years to save for posterity.
      @ KPOcala:
      The complete list of MLB GMs (current) I’d take over Brian Cashman:
      Alderson, Amaro, Jr., Anthopoulos, Antonetti, Beane, Byrnes, Cherington, Colletti, Daniels, DiPoto, Dombrowski, Duquette, Friedman, Hahn, Hill, Hoyer, Huntington, Jocketty, Luhnow, Melvin, Moore, Mozeliak, O’Dowd, Rizzo, Ryan, Sabean, Towers, Wren, and Zduriencik.
      I think any one of these executives could do a better job in the next ten years with $2.0-2.5 billion to spend in 2014-2023 dollars on payroll. And that the Yankees might not have drafted well at some time in the 1980s, or at any time in the past, has nothing to do with the fact that Team Cashman has drafted poorly in the last ten (10) years or more – with the exception of Cito Culver, who lined two ropes in a simulated game yesterday against a pitcher with the “best splitter in the world,” the $175 million man, Masahiro Kuroda.

      Amaro, Jr?
      DiPoto?
      Zdurencik?

      Amazing.

    24. MJ Recanati
      March 12th, 2014 | 8:30 am

      @ Evan3457:
      I’d throw Anthopoulos into your list too. He stockpiled draft picks while the arbitration/free agent compensation rules allowed him to but, when his prospects were stalling out, he traded them away for the core of a horrible 2012 Marlins team. The result? Last place.

      I know he’s not as bad as the team’s record suggests but it’s hard to see how Anthopoulos gets evaluated ahead of anyone given how both directions he’s chosen have flopped.

    25. KPOcala
      March 12th, 2014 | 12:00 pm

      Gentlemen, this is like trying to figure state on tar sands. We don’t Don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes with “our team”, nevermind teams across MLB. Best that we agree to disagree, and keep this from getting into a nasty word fight. I’m stepping out of this discussion. Nobody is going to benefit from a gun battle……

    26. Mr. October
      March 12th, 2014 | 6:41 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      … We don’t Don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes with “our team”, nevermind teams across MLB.

      @ KPOcala:
      That’s correct. That’s why intelligent people don’t waste their time trying to figure it out…

      Brian Cashman is the GM of the New York Yankees – it says so on the stationary that he uses to write letters of recommendation for mentally-imbalanced women he has extramarital affairs with. Friedman is the GM of the Tampa Bay Rays – that’s all I need to know. Dombrowski is the GM of the Detroit Tigers – that’s all I need to know. If upper management directives are affecting Cashman’s ability to win more than one (1) AL Pennant every 10 years outspending all franchises by hundreds-of-millions of dollars to a significant extent, it’s not been reported; The Rodriguez/Galea, R. Soriano, and A. Soriano transactions all worked out pretty well for The Yankee Swordsman.

    27. Mr. October
      March 12th, 2014 | 7:10 pm

      MJ Recanati wrote:

      I’d throw Anthopoulos into your list too. He stockpiled draft picks while the arbitration/free agent compensation rules allowed him to but, when his prospects were stalling out, he traded them away for the core of a horrible 2012 Marlins team. The result? Last place.

      So, for the record, there are all of four (4) GMs out of twenty-nine 29 you would put The Yankee Swordsman ahead of: Amaro, Jr., Anthopoulos, DiPoto, and Zdurencik. I disagree, but at least we agree that the highest-paid, and one of the longest tenured, GMs in MLB is in the bottom 20%…

      I suspect Brian Cashman might be an Internet troll; i.e. he exhibits all of the personality traits of the Dark Tetrad: Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathy, and sadism (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2259036/Brian-Cashman-told-mistress-Louise-Neathway-Yankees-manager-help-child-custody-case.html).

    28. KPOcala
      March 13th, 2014 | 8:22 pm

      @ Mr. October: I knew I shouldn’t have re-checked this thread, and I have to break my own promise to respond to your post. So the REAL beef with Cashman is because he was banging someone he wasn’t married too. You’ve been alluding to it all along, this confirmed what I suspected. Really now, and the other GMs that you’ve proposed, should Cashman get fired, do propose the next GM to sign a sexual “non-compete” clause? And do you think that even half of your guys have “clean slates”? Remember the “Corleone Credo”, “It’s only business”. Seriously. I’m not defending marital infidelities, but there are way worse vices for a team’s GM to have. And it’s not been part of the, ahem, “penal code”, at least in this country.

    29. Mr. October
      March 13th, 2014 | 8:37 pm

      @ KPOcala:
      LOL…

      Yeah that’s it – you got me! The real beef is not with what Cashman has done with this once-great franchise, but my issue is really with the beef he was giving other men’s wives behind the back of his own wife…

      You got me! You’re a shrewd one!

      What do you think of Cashman’s 40-year old no. 2 starting pitcher’s performance in the Spring so far? Kuroda’s looking great this Spring, after having gone 4-10 with a 4.05 ERA in the second half last year at the age of 39… I think Brian Cashman’s 2014 rotation might need a lot of luck in the postseason, if it gets that far…

      Something tells me Cashman will not be asking Kuroda to sign a fourth consecutive one-year contract to be the team’s no. 2 starter in 2015…

    30. Evan3457
      March 14th, 2014 | 1:16 am

      Yeah, because the real test of a starting pitcher is what he does in his 3rd spring training appearance, not the first two.

      Yep, the 3rd one, that’s the key.

      Nice straw man by me. Yep. I like it.

    31. KPOcala
      March 14th, 2014 | 12:16 pm

      @ Mr. October: I think it’s early. Let’s wait and see. And if the pitching staff had an ERA of .50, the hitter’s had a collective OPS of 1.5, I’d wouldn’t crow to say that Cashman had become a “genius” (for the record I think the jury is still out, for a variety of reasons).
      And remember, “it’s strictly business”.

    32. Mr. October
      March 14th, 2014 | 4:35 pm

      Hiroki Kuroda is pitching like he’s 40 years old.

    33. Mr. October
      March 14th, 2014 | 5:27 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      Kuroda’s looking great this Spring, after having gone 4-10 with a 4.05 ERA in the second half last year at the age of 39…

      @ KPOcala:
      Kuroda was 1-7 over the final two months of 2014; his ERA in Sep. was 5.70. Sabathia is not going to return to any semblance of the pitcher he once was; I was willing to “wait and see,” but I’ve seen enough. Tanaka is not going to be a “monster,” or one of the top 20 pitchers in MLB, although he’ll be paid like one. And Pineda doesn’t have the makeup to be a top-of-the-rotation starter. But there is some good news: the lineup looks great from leadoff to the sixth spot – and Brian Cashman, who’s been the GM since 1998, has confirmed that he is aware of an oncoming “crisis” with the infield…

      KPOcala wrote:

      … for the record I think the jury is still out [on Cashman], for a variety of reasons…

      You’re right: the jury might need another 16 years in the case of Brian Cashman; on the other hand, I think Cherington has done an excellent job from behind the “Byzantine corporate structure” of the Boston Red Sox…

    34. Evan3457
      March 14th, 2014 | 8:29 pm

      Way, way too early to make a final judgment on Sabathia.

      A number of top pitchers have recovered from bad seasons caused by injury or a gradual loss of stuff. They moved through the “mid-career crisis” and came out the other side as effective pitchers, if not as great as they once were.

      CC has three advantages. He’s left-handed, he always mixed in a slider, change and a curve, and his injury was to his elbow, not his shoulder. Most of the top pitchers whose career just up and died on them suffered major shoulder injuries. This isn’t CC’s problem.

      He didn’t make any serious changes last year, and tried to bull his way through it, but he’s started to add a cutter this year. So the adjustment begins, belatedly.

    35. Mr. October
      March 15th, 2014 | 8:39 pm

      Cashman’s no. 1 starter is not a no. 1 starter anymore, and will not be again. Carsten Charles Sabathia Jr did a lot for this team, but should not have been given a contract extension by The Yankee Swordsman in 2011-12 that will pay Sabathia like a no. 1 starter ($23.5 million-per) through 2017.

    36. KPOcala
      March 16th, 2014 | 12:50 am

      @ Mr. October:Cherrington did a “lot” for the Red Sox, he’s the “New Genius”, like Theo, who knew when to beat it out of town. And Cherrington isn’t running on a tight budget, and the organization was put “together” by Theo. That’s the “narrative”, right? But after two years he’s “Branch Rickey” already. Two years. Two years of into being GM, under your criteria, then Cashman was a “Genius” under your criteria. If we aren’t “chery picking” what fits the argument, and keeping the discussion rational. Oh, and there was nothing that points to Cashman running around with the brasciole being buried where it shouldn’t. But we don’t know about Cherrington’s mores, yet. Since we can’t have a GM who is a “fallen angel” to sully the franchise.

    37. KPOcala
      March 16th, 2014 | 1:00 am

      @ Mr. October:http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnto01.shtml Yeah, there’s no chance that CC figures it out. No examples of pitchers who learn how to pitch even into their forties and be top-tiered. No pitchers who learn new pitches, think back on Mo’s career as he constantly evolved. And the reason that CC can’t is because Cashman wasn’t in his mind while signing “anyone” over the last ten years, his judgement being constantly clouded by being in “rut”……. Please, follow a line of rationale, even if we “disagree”, but leave Cashman’s peccadilloes out of the conversation. They are not relevant. Steve Phillips is an ultimate slime, but even his terrible tenure as GM needed be judged by his “sexual mores”………

    38. Evan3457
      March 16th, 2014 | 1:37 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      Cashman’s no. 1 starter is not a no. 1 starter anymore, and will not be again. Carsten Charles Sabathia Jr did a lot for this team, but should not have been given a contract extension by The Yankee Swordsman in 2011-12 that will pay Sabathia like a no. 1 starter ($23.5 million-per) through 2017.

      Way, way too early to make a final judgment on Sabathia.

    39. Mr. October
      March 16th, 2014 | 1:42 pm

      “Baseball is all about pitching.” – Buck Showalter, March 15, 2014.

      Someone, preferably with a background in education, should explain to Buck Showalter that “the pitching of one side, and the hitting of the other, are two ‘halves’ of the same coin.” “Baseball is all about pitching” is a long-standing baseball bromide. But it’s really, “baseball is all about pitching by only one ordinal.” Maybe Brian Cashman can explain this to Buck, after all, “baseball is all that ” Cashman says he “knows…”

    40. Mr. October
      March 16th, 2014 | 1:43 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      Yeah, there’s no chance that CC figures it out.

      @ KPOcala:
      I didn’t say there isn’t a chance CC figures it out and becomes a no. 1 starter again. There’s also a chance Brian Cashman will someday be unanimously confirmed by the U.S. Senate to become Director of the Central Intelligence Agency and wiil eventually resign from the Agency after an affair with a female principal author of his biography is reported.

    41. Mr. October
      March 16th, 2014 | 1:50 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      Two years. Two years of into being GM, under your criteria, then Cashman was a “Genius” under your criteria.

      @ KPOcala:
      Not quite. Cashman inherited a little bit more from Gene Michael than Cherington inherited in Boston… Brian Cashman did mean well from the first date.

      I also think John Mozeliak has done an excellent job from behind the “Byzantine corporate structure” of the St. Louis Cardinals. And Dave Dombrowski has done an excellent job from behind the “Byzantine corporate structure” of the Detroit Tigers…

    42. KPOcala
      March 16th, 2014 | 5:51 pm

      @ Mr. October: LOL! Good one! ;)

    43. KPOcala
      March 16th, 2014 | 6:03 pm

      @ Mr. October:You know, funny thing about Dombrowski. He indeed built teams from ground up, except when he became an “idiot” in Boston. If he were available I’d sign him up before he had a chance to think about it. To get back on track, when I asked who’d you pick (above), I should have qualified it with the, “not under contract” possible GMs. I personally think that Cashman has always (like every Yankee GM, since, what, ’73)been placed in a “no win” position as a Yankee GM. There are plenty of teams which, at least from the outside look as though they have “hands-off” ownership. And ideally, you’d want a shrewd GM, that could make his moves, plus a large budget, and no ownership meddling. I believe that the Cardinals & Rays would exemplify this the best. As far as getting back to my comments on Cashman, it’s tough to really do it right when you have George & Hank (and “whoever”) under-cutting your long-term plans. Cashman was willing to let A-Rod walk, wanted Vlad v Sheffield, didn’t want The Unit or “Clemens part II”. All of these moves, and more still resonate loudly through the entire “System”. I’m not hold a torch for Cashman, just trying to find some objectivity…….

    44. Evan3457
      March 16th, 2014 | 7:03 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      “Baseball is all about pitching.” – Buck Showalter, March 15, 2014.
      Someone, preferably with a background in education, should explain to Buck Showalter that “the pitching of one side, and the hitting of the other, are two ‘halves’ of the same coin.” “Baseball is all about pitching” is a long-standing baseball bromide. But it’s really, “baseball is all about pitching by only one ordinal.” Maybe Brian Cashman can explain this to Buck, after all, “baseball is all that ” Cashman says he “knows…”

      People may SAY baseball is all about pitching, but teams don’t ACT like it’s all about pitching.

      If baseball is all about pitching, then teams would:

      1) Draft pitchers exclusively in the upper rounds of the Rule 4 draft. They don’t.

      2) Trade top hitters for top pitchers all the time. They don’t.

      3) The highest paid players would all be pitchers. They aren’t.

      4) They teams that have the best rotations would win every championship. Every one. Not most of them. Not a disproportionate share. Every single title. They don’t.

      ====================================
      Baseball is NOT all about pitching. Even Buck knows that. But people whose only purpose in life is to try to reinterpret every thing that happens and everything that’s said by anybody anywhere within baseball as a knock against Brian Cashman don’t know that.

      Apparently.

    45. Evan3457
      March 16th, 2014 | 7:10 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      KPOcala wrote:
      Two years. Two years of into being GM, under your criteria, then Cashman was a “Genius” under your criteria.
      @ KPOcala:
      Not quite. Cashman inherited a little bit more from Gene Michael than Cherington inherited in Boston… Brian Cashman did mean well from the first date.
      I also think John Mozeliak has done an excellent job from behind the “Byzantine corporate structure” of the St. Louis Cardinals. And Dave Dombrowski has done an excellent job from behind the “Byzantine corporate structure” of the Detroit Tigers…

      Except those teams, and the Red Sox as well, don’t have Byzantine corporate structures. The Yankees do.

      There’s the Tampa power bloc. There’s the New York power bloc. There’s two owners, not one, with varying control over various things at different times. There’s a president who’ll be there forever because of his work on the Stadium deal, meddling in on various moves. There’s a TV network honcho throwing his two cents in. And then there were son-in-laws, two of them, that butted in and had their say, and were given power over part of the organization, and no one can say how large they were, and exactly what they were, or what they had/have no say in.

      And then there’s a GM who was just “a puppet” while George was still in charge, and then he was “autonomous”, a phase which lasted oh, about 2 years, until A-Rod opted out. And now, nobody knows who’s in charge of what.

      So the phrase “Byzantine corporate structure” is applied appropriately to the Yankees. Using it on other organizations is generally not appropriate, especially not the Cards, the Tigers, or the Red Sox. All three of those teams have an owner, a president, and a GM, and everyone else works under them.

    46. Mr. October
      March 17th, 2014 | 8:37 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      You know, funny thing about Dombrowski. He indeed built teams from ground up, except when he became an “idiot” in Boston.

      When did Dave Dombrowski become an “idiot” in Boston? He’s been with the White Sox, Expos, Marlins, and the Tigers… it’s not as if he would be working for UPS today if his father had not been a close personal friend and business associate or partner of a Major League owner as Brian Cashman would be… If you’re referring to Epstein… there’s no argument that Brian Cashman deserves to be the Senior Vice President and general moron of this organization for one more day – that’s the bottom line.

      KPOcala wrote:

      I personally think that Cashman has always (like every Yankee GM, since, what, ’73)been placed in a “no win” position as a Yankee GM.

      Huh? Cashman inherited one of the greatest teams of all-time in the 1998 New York Yankees, and the franchise has been in decline every since. If C.C. Sabathia does not sign the biggest contract in MLB history for a pitcher in 2009, because one other franchise was able to match the offer or for another reason,
      this team hasn’t won anything since 2005-06.

      The problem is Cashman has been in a “no lose” position: spend $200-40 million every year since 2005-06 to make the playoffs: if you make the playoffs, the team will profit by an additional $50-70 million or more in additional revenues, and your job will be safe; if you do not make the playoffs, the team will spend $423.5-500 million or more on free agents in one offseason and get back to the playoffs, and your job will be safe.

      KPOcala wrote:

      Cashman was willing to let A-Rod walk, wanted Vlad v Sheffield, didn’t want The Unit or “Clemens part II”. All of these moves, and more still resonate loudly through the entire “System”. I’m not hold a torch for Cashman, just trying to find some objectivity…….

      Cashman didn’t want The Big Unit in 1998 before The Big Unit went on to win four (4) consecutive Cy Young Awards; he convinced George Steinbrenner to not pursue a contract extension that would have brought Johnson to The Bronx. So George Steinbrenner wanted Sheffield? So what? Was Sheffield that bad? Cashman has been the general moron of this organization for almost 16 years and IIRC, there’s only two GMs in baseball that have been around longer. Cashman should have been gone a long time ago.

      @ KPOcala:
      I left out a lot of GMs whom I consider to have done better jobs behind the “Byzantine corportate structures” of their organizations, such as Alderson; the Mets can flip the switch at any time and have one of the best teams in baseball with all of the pitching this organization has developed for years to come once Harvey returns – it’s just a matter of the Wilpons spending the money now. I don’t think Alderson will need any suggestions from Cashman on how to spend the money, either…

    47. Raf
      March 18th, 2014 | 1:05 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      the Mets can flip the switch at any time and have one of the best teams in baseball with all of the pitching this organization has developed for years to come once Harvey returns

      Hopefully, they’ll turn out better than these guys
      http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/09/remembering-generation-k.html/

    48. Mr. October
      March 18th, 2014 | 2:51 pm

      Raf wrote:

      Hopefully, they’ll turn out better than these guys
      http://metsmerizedonline.com/2010/09/remembering-generation-k.html/

      Generation K consisted of three people; the Killer ‘B’s conisisted of four (Manny Banuelos, Dellin Betances, Andrew Brackman, and Kim Brennan)… There’s a lot more than three or four of “these guys,” and one of them has already started an All-Star game.

      There was alot of disagreement behind the Byzantine corporate structure of the New York Mets: one faction wanted to build the team from the Gene Michael playbook, or “big hairy monster teams that mash,” because that approach has been so successful in The Bronx from 2005-2014, resulting in one AL pennant won; a second faction wanted to build the team on a strong foundation of starting pitching, allowing pieces to be filled in through trades with talent provided by a robust farm system, and through free agency, with a payroll probably less than $150 million. The second faction won out…

    49. Mr. October
      March 18th, 2014 | 9:06 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      If baseball is all about pitching, then teams would… trade top hitters for top pitchers all the time.

      That makes a lot of sense…

    50. Evan3457
      March 19th, 2014 | 1:38 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      Evan3457 wrote:
      If baseball is all about pitching, then teams would… trade top hitters for top pitchers all the time.
      That makes a lot of sense…

      The point being, it doesn’t happen often.

    51. KPOcala
      March 19th, 2014 | 1:05 pm

      @ Evan3457: Yeah, the Braves should one a lot of Rings with pitching, although we know that it isn’t really fair. The Yanks may have beaten them, but it seemed like every win was “a game of inches”. Which is part and parcel why it’s unfair to judge teams in ANY sport with respect to “Rings”. Elway was kinda of a “bum” until he got his, Marino never did, and he gets the “goat horns”. Sports “analysis” has gotten to be ridiculous, really….

    52. KPOcala
      March 19th, 2014 | 1:09 pm

      @ Mr. October: Really? You’d trade a top hitter for a top pitcher knowing the inherent risks in pitcher breakdown? Bill James has written a lot over the last thirty years on this subject. I’ll defer to James. I’m glad you don’t manage my money.

    53. KPOcala
      March 19th, 2014 | 1:18 pm

      @ Mr. October: The Unit wouldn’t sign with the Yankees, period. Actually Dombrowski didn’t go to Boston, I must have been thinking of Duquette, so BAD on both of us.

      As for Cashman being in a “no win” situation, you unwittingly made my point. He either ‘inherited’ “this”, or was “In Place” during “that”, or when he got “full autonomy”, he winds up being “Hanked”. Ok, you hate the man, and are fortunate to have 20/20 hindsight. You need some self-reflection.

    54. Mr. October
      March 19th, 2014 | 9:50 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      Really? You’d trade a top hitter for a top pitcher knowing the inherent risks in pitcher breakdown?

      @ KPOcala:
      I didn’t say that.

    55. Mr. October
      March 19th, 2014 | 9:52 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      The Unit wouldn’t sign with the Yankees, period.

      Really? I must have missed that… Where was it reported that Brian Cashman attempted to sign Johnson to a contract extension, unsuccessfully, in 1998?

    56. KPOcala
      March 20th, 2014 | 12:55 am

      @ Mr. October:
      Evan3457 wrote:
      If baseball is all about pitching, then teams would… trade top hitters for top pitchers all the time.
      (Mr. October):That makes a lot of sense…

      Apparently, you did.

    57. KPOcala
      March 20th, 2014 | 12:56 am

      @ Mr. October: “Contract Extension”? How does that work, given that he wasn’t on the team?

    58. KPOcala
      March 20th, 2014 | 1:00 am

      @ Evan3457:Thanks for the support. This is “patience and logic therapy for me, but it’s closer to a “nut house” ;)

    59. KPOcala
      March 20th, 2014 | 1:05 am

      @ Mr. October:
      Cashman didn’t want The Big Unit in 1998 before The Big Unit went on to win four (4) consecutive Cy Young Awards; he convinced George Steinbrenner to not pursue a contract extension that would have brought Johnson to The Bronx. Cashman, in ’98, essentially “overruled” George?! LOL, your statement needs no “rebuttal”.

    60. KPOcala
      March 20th, 2014 | 1:06 am

      I’ve already had two illuminating posts deleted from this thread. I find it “interesting”…….

    61. Evan3457
      March 20th, 2014 | 3:28 am

      The Yankees were in trade talks for Johnson in 1998 only to make sure he didn’t go to an AL rival. The Yanks already had the best pitching in baseball in 1998; the best starting pitching, and the best bullpen. They had no need to trade at least 3 prospects for Johnson so they could knock Pettitte, Wells, Cone or El Duque out of the post-season rotation. (At the trading deadline in 1998, the Yanks were 15 games in 1st, and well on their way to the post-season; they didn’t need to add Johnson to get there.)

      They stayed in the trade talks to make sure that Boston, Cleveland or Texas didn’t get Johnson. When the Astros made their big offer to the Mariners and the AL rivals dropped out of the bidding for Johnson, so did the Yankees. And rightly so.

    62. March 20th, 2014 | 9:11 am

      KPOcala wrote:

      I’ve already had two illuminating posts deleted from this thread. I find it “interesting”…….

      I did not delete anything. And, there’s nothing in the pending folder waiting for approval.

    63. Mr. October
      March 20th, 2014 | 8:50 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      @ Mr. October:
      “Contract Extension”? How does that work, given that he wasn’t on the team?

      @ KPOcala:
      I’m not surprised your friend didn’t take the time to explain something to you that is an inconvenient fact under the circumstances: a transaction or agreement can be contingent upon the negotiation of a contract extension. It seems you guys didn’t have all of the facts before you went on record arguing that The Yankee Swordsman made the right move…

      “Let’s review, shall we:”

      In 1993, Gene Michael had an agreement in place to acquire Randy Johnson for two prospects, but Mr. Steinbrenner was reluctant to take on Johnson’s salary…

      In 1998, Mr. Steinbrenner was interested in acquiring Johnson, and Seattle offered Johnson for Lowell, Irabu, and perhaps one other prospect, according to various reports… Brian Cashman’s interest in Johnson was centered on preventing Johnson’s trade to an AL team; at no time did Cashman take the opportunity to negotiate a contract extension with Johnson once an agreement was largely in place with Seattle on its terms or before it became apparent Johnson would be traded to an NL team if a deal was not made. The Yankee Swordsman convinced Steinbrenner to pass on the deal…

      Look it up.

      Cashman congratulated himself on not acquiring Johnson after the 1998 season and a world championship won with a team Gene Michael built. And Brian “You Can Never Have Enough Pitching” Cashman did not pursue Johnson as a free agent in the 1998-99 offseason, either, although he did trade the left-handed Wells for Clemens.

      In 1999, Cashman traded a then 24-year-old Lowell to the Marlins for three young pitchers: Noel, Yarnall, and Johnson. You can do the research yourself on how well this trade, Cashman’s first with Dombrowski, turned out. Also in 1999, Johnson won a Cy Young Award with his new team, Arizona.

      In 2000, Johnson won a second-consecutive Cy Young Award.

      In 2001, Johnson won a third-consecutive Cy Young Award, and was the World Series MVP in the 2001 World Series against Team Cashman.

      In 2002, Johnson won a fourth-consecutive Cy Young Award, and Cashman traded a pitcher named Ted Lilly (acquired in a deal for Irabu), for a pitcher named Jeff Weaver. You can do the research yourself on how well this trade with Beane turned out, too…

      In 2003, Team Cashman lost the World Series to the Florida Marlins.

      In 2004-05, “[Team Cashman's] financial obligation in their acquisition of Randy Johnson ballooned to about $57 million… when the team signed the 41-year-old left-hander to a two-year contract extension and Johnson formally waived his no-trade clause to agree to the deal.

      Johnson’s contract extension, which was considered a formality when the teams agreed to the trade last week, will pay him a combined $32 million in 2006 and 2007; he will be 45 when the contract runs out…”

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53308-2005Jan6.html

      In 2007, “… the Yankees… traded Johnson to Arizona… returning the pitcher they could not live without just two years ago… [the move was not] announced, because the Diamondbacks must formalize a contract extension for Johnson

      At 4 p.m. yesterday, the Diamondbacks began a 72-hour negotiating window with Johnson to complete the trade… The Yankees have imported many stars since their last World Series victory, in 2000, but no combination has resulted in a championship…”

      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/05/sports/baseball/05yanks.html?fta=y

      I neglected to mention that Cashman, offered a young prospect by the name of Robinson Cano, to Arizona in the 2004 deal.

      Look it up. Cashman had no interest in acquiring a pitcher in 1998 who would go on to win four consecutive Cy Young Awards, as long as that pitcher didn’t go to an AL team… Cashman then went on to convert those trade pieces into Ed Yarnall and Jeff Weaver…

      @ KPOcala:
      You mentioned Sheffield…

      Would you like to review the 2006-07 Sheffield trade, too, while we’re at it?

      The Yankee Swordsman exercised an option on Sheffield’s contract for the sole purpose of trading Sheffield, pissing Sheffield off, and then proceeded to trade Sheffield to Detroit for three worthless pitchers, two with arm problems. Another great trade Cashman made with Dombowski…

    64. Mr. October
      March 21st, 2014 | 12:01 am

      @ KPOcala:
      “… The Yankees probably had the best chance of giving the Mariners what they wanted for [Randy] Johnson – promising young pitchers – but they abandoned their pursuit… According to… the Mariners’ general manager, Gene Michael… told him, ‘It didn’t look like Mr. Steinbrenner would approve a large contract for a pitcher…’”

      http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/10/sports/baseball-yankees-newfound-thrift-costs-them-randy-johnson.html

      “… the Texas Rangers’ general manager, said one of the team’s coaches received a telephone call from a friend who, he said, was in position to know these things and that the friend had said that Johnson and Timlin were going to the Yankees for Irabu, Ledee, Lowell and Bush. In addition, the Yankees were said to be signing Johnson to a three-year contract extension at $12 million a year…”

      August 1, 1998:

      “The Yankees could have had Randy Johnson tonight. Yankees [general moron] Brian Cashman could have called the Seattle Mariners and agreed to their demands, and Johnson, one of this generation’s best pitchers, would have joined George Steinbrenner’s juggernaut…”

      Instead, the Yankees decided to pass on Johnson, refusing Seattle’s request for [Irabu, Lowell] and a second Class A player…

      http://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/01/sports/baseball-with-johnson-there-for-the-taking-yanks-balked.html

      The month of July, 1998 came and went with Johnson on the trade market and with the Yankees having the trade pieces to acquire Johnson – at one point it was even reported that Johnson was to sign a three-year contract extension to pitch in New York through 2000. In the 1998-99 offseason, Team Cashman did not make a serious attempt to sign Johnson as a free agent… And the rest is history…

    65. Evan3457
      March 21st, 2014 | 12:06 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      KPOcala wrote:
      @ Mr. October:
      “Contract Extension”? How does that work, given that he wasn’t on the team?
      @ KPOcala:
      I’m not surprised your friend didn’t take the time to explain something to you that is an inconvenient fact under the circumstances: a transaction or agreement can be contingent upon the negotiation of a contract extension. It seems you guys didn’t have all of the facts before you went on record arguing that The Yankee Swordsman made the right move…
      “Let’s review, shall we:”
      In 1993, Gene Michael had an agreement in place to acquire Randy Johnson for two prospects, but Mr. Steinbrenner was reluctant to take on Johnson’s salary…
      In 1998, Mr. Steinbrenner was interested in acquiring Johnson, and Seattle offered Johnson for Lowell, Irabu, and perhaps one other prospect, according to various reports… Brian Cashman’s interest in Johnson was centered on preventing Johnson’s trade to an AL team; at no time did Cashman take the opportunity to negotiate a contract extension with Johnson once an agreement was largely in place with Seattle on its terms or before it became apparent Johnson would be traded to an NL team if a deal was not made. The Yankee Swordsman convinced Steinbrenner to pass on the deal…
      Look it up.
      Cashman congratulated himself on not acquiring Johnson after the 1998 season and a world championship won with a team Gene Michael built. And Brian “You Can Never Have Enough Pitching” Cashman did not pursue Johnson as a free agent in the 1998-99 offseason, either, although he did trade the left-handed Wells for Clemens.
      In 1999, Cashman traded a then 24-year-old Lowell to the Marlins for three young pitchers: Noel, Yarnall, and Johnson. You can do the research yourself on how well this trade, Cashman’s first with Dombrowski, turned out. Also in 1999, Johnson won a Cy Young Award with his new team, Arizona.
      In 2000, Johnson won a second-consecutive Cy Young Award.
      In 2001, Johnson won a third-consecutive Cy Young Award, and was the World Series MVP in the 2001 World Series against Team Cashman.
      In 2002, Johnson won a fourth-consecutive Cy Young Award, and Cashman traded a pitcher named Ted Lilly (acquired in a deal for Irabu), for a pitcher named Jeff Weaver. You can do the research yourself on how well this trade with Beane turned out, too…
      In 2003, Team Cashman lost the World Series to the Florida Marlins.
      In 2004-05, “[Team Cashman's] financial obligation in their acquisition of Randy Johnson ballooned to about $57 million… when the team signed the 41-year-old left-hander to a two-year contract extension and Johnson formally waived his no-trade clause to agree to the deal.
      …Johnson’s contract extension, which was considered a formality when the teams agreed to the trade last week, will pay him a combined $32 million in 2006 and 2007; he will be 45 when the contract runs out…”
      http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53308-2005Jan6.html
      In 2007, “… the Yankees… traded Johnson to Arizona… returning the pitcher they could not live without just two years ago… [the move was not] announced, because the Diamondbacks must formalize a contract extension for Johnson…
      At 4 p.m. yesterday, the Diamondbacks began a 72-hour negotiating window with Johnson to complete the trade… The Yankees have imported many stars since their last World Series victory, in 2000, but no combination has resulted in a championship…”
      http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/05/sports/baseball/05yanks.html?fta=y
      I neglected to mention that Cashman, offered a young prospect by the name of Robinson Cano, to Arizona in the 2004 deal.
      Look it up. Cashman had no interest in acquiring a pitcher in 1998 who would go on to win four consecutive Cy Young Awards, as long as that pitcher didn’t go to an AL team… Cashman then went on to convert those trade pieces into Ed Yarnall and Jeff Weaver…
      @ KPOcala:
      You mentioned Sheffield…
      Would you like to review the 2006-07 Sheffield trade, too, while we’re at it?
      The Yankee Swordsman exercised an option on Sheffield’s contract for the sole purpose of trading Sheffield, pissing Sheffield off, and then proceeded to trade Sheffield to Detroit for three worthless pitchers, two with arm problems. Another great trade Cashman made with Dombowski…

      All of this is well known, has been discussed here multiple times, and none of it has any impact on what I said in my previous post in this thread.

    66. Evan3457
      March 21st, 2014 | 12:07 am

      Mr. October wrote:

      @ KPOcala:
      “… The Yankees probably had the best chance of giving the Mariners what they wanted for [Randy] Johnson – promising young pitchers – but they abandoned their pursuit… According to… the Mariners’ general manager, Gene Michael… told him, ‘It didn’t look like Mr. Steinbrenner would approve a large contract for a pitcher…’”
      http://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/10/sports/baseball-yankees-newfound-thrift-costs-them-randy-johnson.html
      “… the Texas Rangers’ general manager, said one of the team’s coaches received a telephone call from a friend who, he said, was in position to know these things and that the friend had said that Johnson and Timlin were going to the Yankees for Irabu, Ledee, Lowell and Bush. In addition, the Yankees were said to be signing Johnson to a three-year contract extension at $12 million a year…”
      August 1, 1998:
      “The Yankees could have had Randy Johnson tonight. Yankees [general moron] Brian Cashman could have called the Seattle Mariners and agreed to their demands, and Johnson, one of this generation’s best pitchers, would have joined George Steinbrenner’s juggernaut…”
      Instead, the Yankees decided to pass on Johnson, refusing Seattle’s request for [Irabu, Lowell] and a second Class A player…
      http://www.nytimes.com/1998/08/01/sports/baseball-with-johnson-there-for-the-taking-yanks-balked.html
      The month of July, 1998 came and went with Johnson on the trade market and with the Yankees having the trade pieces to acquire Johnson – at one point it was even reported that Johnson was to sign a three-year contract extension to pitch in New York through 2000. In the 1998-99 offseason, Team Cashman did not make a serious attempt to sign Johnson as a free agent… And the rest is history…

      Same here.

    67. KPOcala
      March 21st, 2014 | 12:36 am

      @ Mr. October:And you seriously believe, that in 1998, Cashman really had that kind of pull? You can “cite” all you like, but that’s no reflective of “reality”. And what why would Cashman NOT trade Johnson in 2007, an old, unhappy pitcher with a nasty disposition? I seem to remember the ridicule that Cashman took for “HIS signing” after Johnson didn’t win another two Cy Youngs, but still had a “reasonably good” two year stint, going 34-19, with decent peripherals (especially his first season). I mean, the man played those two years at ages 41-42, and Yankee fans were pissed! Then you criticize Cashman for dealing him away, at age 43 for Alberto Gonzalez, Steven Jackson, Ross Ohlendorf and Luis Vizcaino, players who either played well for a time, and/or were used in trades for some “pieces”. Considering he was trading a player who took “silicone” injections in his knees, had disks in his back which he was taking shots, INTO, the spine for, Cashman got a “haul”. Oh, and speaking of trades, let’s go back to Sheffield. Having played 33 games for the Yankees in his final season age 37 (turning THIRTY-EIGHT), he was traded for Anthony Claggett, Humberto Sanchez and Kevin Whelan. Sanchez at the time, was considered a “True Prospect”, in all my preseason books on “prospects”. That Sanchez blew out was hardly a “coup” for Dombrowski, Sheffield’s career melted into “irrelevancy”. To the point, had Cashman NOT traded Sheffield and Johnson when he did, you’d (rightly)be heckling Cashman for being an imbecile (like I am for bothering writing in response to a “20/20 hindsight visionary”). Lastly, the Weaver trade was “universally” lauded at the time, the Yankees acquiring “ace material”. I will say I didn’t care for the trade myself, Lilly was a promising left-hander, who went on to have a very fine career. But I find it a stretch to use that as anti-Cashman ammunition. Why are you bothering going on with this? It’s Cashman, “The Swordsman” that you’re attacking. And I find that a rebuttal that I made on this thread last week was, “interestingly, deleted”. The fusillade of “what ifs”, the type that you find eager to use, more than the sails of you “ship of ideas” could take,shredded and deflated. I enjoy the “sting of battle” as much as you do. Let’s call this a “gentlemen’s draw”, shall we?

    68. Mr. October
      March 21st, 2014 | 6:40 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      And you seriously believe, that in 1998, Cashman really had that kind of pull?

      @ KPOcala:
      K.P. of Ocala, FL:

      Cashman had “enough pull” to claim credit for the general management of the 1998 team, as he has done in multiple interviews since… He is given “credit” for the general management of FOUR (4) World Championship teams on outlets such as ESPN.

      So if Brian Cashman didn’t have “enough pull” to acquire a pitcher George Steinbrenner was interested in by reaching an agreement on a trade of Johnson for Irabu, Lowell, and a third prospect and getting permission from the commissioner’s office to talk to Johnson about a trade extension in July of 1998, or to sign Johnson as a free agent, then why is he given him credit for world championships won by teams built by Michael?

      From 1999-2013, Team Cashman had the highest payroll in MLB, so the money was there to sign Johnson in 1998. If Cashman didn’t have the “pull” to add “one of this generation’s best pitchers” to teams built by Michael, then he doesn’t deserve the recognition of a GM that has won four world championships…

      Gene Michael had a deal in place for Johnson in 1993, when Johnson was available. Johnson was available in 1998, and The Yankee Swordsman was not interested in his acquisition through trade or free agency. Johnson went on to win four consecutive Cy Young Awards in the years immediately afterward on his way to a Hall of Fame Career, and a World Series MVP against Team Cashman in 2001.

      Cashman expressed little-to-no interest in Johnson until he saw an opportunity to trade one of the finest prospects this organization has ever developed (Cano) for Johnson when Johnson was 41 and at the end of his career.

      These are facts. Facts.

      KPOcala wrote:

      Sheffield’s career melted into “irrelevancy”.

      Once again, you two do not have all of the facts…

      Sheffield’s career did not “melt into ‘irrelevancy’.” Gary Sheffield was on his way to an MVP-caliber season in the first year of his contract with the Tigers (extended to three years) when he suffered a labrum tear to his right should in an outfield collision in Jul., 2007. He was never the same player after that.

      And it is of little relevance that a trade was lauded by any party “at the time;” what matters is results. It is of little relevance that one other team was interested in Kei Igawa, or Carl Pavano “at the time;” what matters is results.

      The results for The Cashman Autoeroticism Era are one (1) AL Pennant since 2005; a .490 postseason WPCT in only 11 postseason series played.

    69. Evan3457
      March 21st, 2014 | 8:01 pm

      Mr. October wrote:

      Cashman expressed little-to-no interest in Johnson until he saw an opportunity to trade one of the finest prospects this organization has ever developed (Cano) for Johnson when Johnson was 41 and at the end of his career.
      These are facts. Facts.

      No, actually, they’re not.
      The drive to trade for Johnson following the collapse in the 2004 ALCS came from George…just as George wanted to trade for him 1998.

      Cashman planned to use the money that eventually was spent on Johnson in signing Carlos Beltran. George didn’t allow it.
      KPOcala wrote:
      Sheffield’s career melted into “irrelevancy”.
      Once again, you two do not have all of the facts…
      Sheffield’s career did not “melt into ‘irrelevancy’.” Gary Sheffield was on his way to an MVP-caliber season in the first year of his contract with the Tigers

      The facts are that Sheffield was not even the most valuable player on the Tigers at the time of his injury in late July; Ordonez was outhitting him, Granderson hitting nearly as well, and both were more valuable defenders (primarily because they were playing a position, and not DHing).

      The results for The Cashman Autoeroticism Era are one (1) AL Pennant since 2005; a .490 postseason WPCT in only 11 postseason series played.

      …and one title.

    70. Evan3457
      March 21st, 2014 | 8:16 pm

      The last rumor involving the Yankees and Randy Johnson in 1998 occurred on the day he got traded to the Astros, and it was:

      The Madison Square Garden sports wire accidentally goes on line to say that the Mariners deal Johnson for Hideki Irabu, Ramiro Mendoza and Homer Bush. They retract the story immediately.

      As of July 31st, Hideki Irabu was 10-4 with a 3.23 ERA, by the way.

    71. Mr. October
      March 21st, 2014 | 8:19 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      Steve Phillips is an ultimate slime…

      Speaking of Phillips, I have a theory: Cashman wanted Louise to call him “Steve” when the two of them were out in public so that people who might have recognized him might have also confused him with Phillips…

      Why pick the name “Steve?” It probably wasn’t because Cashman was a big fan of waswatching.com…

      You know who was in the bar tonight with some blond? That ultimate slime who used to be the GM of one the New York teams – Steve ‘something’….” Wile E. Cashman…

      KPOcala wrote:

      Why are you bothering going on with this?

      @ KPOcala:
      LOL… I’m just replying to you…

    72. Mr. October
      March 21st, 2014 | 8:40 pm

      @ KPOcala:
      FYI:

      Tigers’ Gary Sheffield day to day with shoulder injury

      “DETROIT (AP) … A day after [the Detroit designated hitter] had X-rays and an MRI exam, [Sheffield] said the injury stemmed from when he fell on his right elbow in a collision…

      Sheffield was 0-for-3 at Oakland and hit .152 (5-for-33) on Detroit’s eight-game trip. He is hitting .290, with 23 homers and 67 RBIs…’I can’t be myself,’ Sheffield said. ‘Guys throwing 88 miles per hour, and I can’t do nothing with it…’”

      http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2007-08-03-1540955029_x.htm

      Do the math: What were Gary Sheffield’s “MVP-caliber” numbers before his career-ending injury at the midpoint of the ’07 season?

      caliber |ˈkaləbər| ( Brit. calibre) (abbr.: cal or cal.)
      noun
      1 the quality of someone’s character or the level of someone’s ability : they could ill afford to lose a man of his caliber.
      • the standard reached by something : educational facilities of a very high caliber.

      DERIVATIVES
      calibered adjective [also in combination ] .

      oxymoron |ˌäksəˈmôrˌän|
      noun
      a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g. Curtis Granderson’s prime, Brian Cashman’s judgment).
      DERIVATIVES
      oxymoronic |-məˈränik| adjective

    73. Evan3457
      March 21st, 2014 | 9:52 pm

      Sheffield was having a very good season.
      He wasn’t going to win the MVP.
      He wasn’t going to be top 5 in the MVP voting, probably not top ten.
      He was a DH, and not even the best DH in the league; David Ortiz was. Ortiz made the All-Star team, Sheffield didn’t; there were 8 outfielders on that team, and Sheffield wasn’t one of them, and the All-Star game was on July 10th, before his injury.
      He wasn’t the MVP on his own team, Ordonez was. Sheffield’s peak OPS for the season was .986 on July 15. Ordonez OPS for the season was above .986 every day of the season from April 29th through the end of the year.

      His injury was unfortunate, but he was 38 years old, and he was seriously injured the year before. (By the way, how come when the Yankees’ old players get hurt, Cashman’s an idiot, but when Sheffield gets seriously hurt at age 37 and 38, that’s just bad luck?)

      Oh, and there’s nothing oxymoronic about “Granderson’s prime”. He did have a prime, and it was pretty damn good. As has been shown before.