• The Chapman Deal

    Posted by on July 25th, 2016 · Comments (58)

    I am concerned about Torres strikeout rate and McKinney’s lack of power.

    If Torres is going to swing and miss that much at High A, what’s going to happen when he gets to more advanced levels? And, McKinney is now on his third organization in a very short period of time.

    It seems that the Yankees could have done better, in my opinion.

    I would have rather seen one solid prospect in return who was proven at the Double- or Triple-A level and just about ready for the big leagues – rather than a package of four players that only contained two reach prospects.

    Let us see if the Royals trade Wade Davis and see what they get in return. That might be an interesting yardstick.

    Comments on The Chapman Deal

    1. Evan3457
      July 26th, 2016 | 1:11 am

      This guy thinks the Yanks did very well, as he expected the price for Chapman to be much lower:
      http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-cubs-chapman-and-the-new-price-for-an-elite-reliever/

      I’m going to catch metaphorical hell for this, but Torres’ hitting profile and abilities immediately made me think: not-quite-Jeter

    2. Evan3457
      July 26th, 2016 | 1:16 am

      As for McKinney, he’s trying to get over the effect of fracturing his kneecap late last year. He’s surplus to the Cubs, because the Cubs also have:

      Heyward
      Fowler
      Schwarber
      Soler
      Almora
      Jimenez
      Martinez

      plus they rotate both Contraras and Bryant into their outfield at times.

    3. Evan3457
      July 26th, 2016 | 1:38 am

      One more thing about Torres’ K rate:

      1st 14 games: 20 K in 64 PA (53 AB): 31.3%
      Since then: 67 K in 345 PA (303 AB): 19.4%

      .304/.378/.468 since, in those 80 games.

    4. KPOcala
      July 26th, 2016 | 3:03 am

      Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Torres is the second youngest player in the Carolina League. He’s BA’s 27th highest prospect as listed in their mid-season report. Keith Law also has ranked, I believe at #26. To rank that highly at age 19, he must sure as hell be a stunning player to watch! That being said, I sure as hell wouldn’t bet the farm that he becomes anything in the Majors, just the nature of the beast. But Cashman didn’t exactly get fleeced. And considering the line of transactions that he made over the past year to acquire Torres, and the “rest”. And funny given the way that Yankee fans (and rabid anti-Yankee pundits) squealed like a pig when Warren was traded away. Not too shabby.

    5. Evan3457
      July 26th, 2016 | 4:50 am

      David Pinto at Baseball Musings says:

      Gleyber is seasonal age 19 and hitting .275/.359/.433 at high A ball. McKinney is 21 and does a good job of getting on base. Crawford is 22 and frankly doesn’t look like much of a hitter. The Yankees control Didi Gregorious long enough for Torres to develop and be ready when and if Gregorious goes. Of course, the Yankees could always flip Torres for some immediate need in the future. Nice job by the Yankees of buying low and selling high with Chapman.

    6. Evan3457
      July 26th, 2016 | 4:54 am

      Baseball America’s free post-trade scouting report on Torres:
      At just 19 years old, Torres recovered from a rough April to hit .302/.379/.468 since then at high Class A Myrtle Beach with 18 doubles, eight home runs, 39 RBIs and 18 stolen bases. He began the season as the second-youngest player in the Carolina League behind only Frederick third baseman Jomar Reyes. He opened the season focused on hitting for more power instead of just letting it come naturally, and as a result got pull-happy and starting cheating on fastballs. Once he reverted to his former approach, he began using the whole field again and success returned. He got a $1.7 million bonus from the Cubs in 2013 when the team blew past its international bonus allotment.

      He’s put in hard work with the Cubs’ defensive coaches over the past couple of years and has made himself into a reliable defender at shortstop with a chance to be a little more than that if he sticks at the position in the long-term.

    7. Evan3457
      July 26th, 2016 | 12:52 pm

      From John Harper’s column in today’s Daily News, re: Torres…
      The type of guy you just don’t get for a rental,’’ one scout said. “The Yankees took advantage of the situation — the desperation in Chicago for a championship … the number of contenders Chapman was perfect for.’’

    8. July 26th, 2016 | 1:18 pm

      Last week, the Cubs traded Dan Vogelbach to Mariners for Mike Montgomery. Seattle did much better, in terms of a return, compared to what the Yankees got…and Montgomery is not Chapman.

    9. Evan3457
      July 26th, 2016 | 3:03 pm

      Steve L. wrote:

      Last week, the Cubs traded Dan Vogelbach to Mariners for Mike Montgomery. Seattle did much better, in terms of a return, compared to what the Yankees got…and Montgomery is not Chapman.

      That’s way, way off Steve.
      There isn’t a team in baseball that would’ve taken Vogelbach over Torres, unless they were trying make the playoffs, and had an open running sore at 1B or DH, and already had a terrific young shortstop on the major league roster.

      Right now, MLB has Vogelbach as the Mariners #15 prospect, behind guys like their #9 prospect a short, low-K right handed starter, 22 years old at AA. He’s having a good season at AAA, and will likely be a solid major league hitter, but he’s 23 already and not playing in the majors, and the scouting reports say he’ll eventually be limited to DH, where Nelson Cruz is locked in for 2 more years.

      Vogelbach’s scouting grades at MLB: Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 50 | Run: 20 | Arm: 40 | Field: 30 | Overall: 45

      His hit tool is his highest grade at 55. Torres’ hit tool is higher, at 60.

      Run: 20. You know what that is, Steve? That’s Brian McCann with a knee injury slow. Field 30: You know what this for a 1st baseman? That’s Dave Kingman, minus the foot speed. That’s Giambi, at the end, when he could hardly move.

      The Mariners will have to force him to play first when Lind leaves, and he’ll hurt their defense by doing so.

    10. EHawk
      July 26th, 2016 | 5:06 pm

      Haven’t seen anyone knocking this as a bad trade for the Yanks…in fact from what I’ve seen its been almost 100% positive and that the Yanks got a lot more then anyone would of thought for Chapman. I think Cashman would of caught a lot more grief if he passed on this trade. Also don’t think there was another team out there that would of given up more then what the Cubs did. Plus we get Warren back who can slide into the 7th inning and has proven he can pitch in NY.

    11. July 26th, 2016 | 7:38 pm

      Vogelbach = Mo Vaughn
      Pretty sure Mo won an MVP

    12. KPOcala
      July 26th, 2016 | 8:07 pm

      @ Steve L.:
      Steve, an “interesting” comparison. I noticed that Big Dan, being 23 years of age sports #250 of “jiving joy” to go with his 6′ height. Maybe he could play “Hoss” in “Bonanza, The Movie” ;)

    13. Evan3457
      July 27th, 2016 | 12:24 am

      Steve L. wrote:

      Vogelbach = Mo Vaughn
      Pretty sure Mo won an MVP

      That’s a bit of a stretch, I think.
      Mo Vaughn: Baseball America #76 prospect after his first season in AAA (and 2nd minor league season) in 1990
      #10 Baseball America prospect after his 3rd season in 1991.

      Dan Vogelbach has never been in any of the three major top 100′s after any of his 4 seasons in the minors. He might finally get there this year.

      Physically, Vogelbach is what Vaughn was in the last 2-3 years of his career, when the knees started acting up. The batting stroke might be quicker than that because he’s 23.

      He was at 280; he’s supposed to be 250 right now.

    14. YoureNotAMetsFan
      July 27th, 2016 | 12:41 am

      From Fangraphs “The Chicago Cubs paid one hell of a price to acquire Aroldis Chapman yesterday. Maybe the highest we’ve ever seen for a reliever; certainly the highest for a half-season rental.”

    15. YoureNotAMetsFan
      July 27th, 2016 | 12:51 am

      Steve L. wrote:

      Last week, the Cubs traded Dan Vogelbach to Mariners for Mike Montgomery. Seattle did much better, in terms of a return, compared to what the Yankees got…and Montgomery is not Chapman.

      Dan Vogelbach, 1B, Seattle (Profile)
      KATOH Forecast for first six seasons: 2.8 WAR

      Gleyber Torres, SS (Profile)
      KATOH Projection: 5.6 WAR

      Not sure how that’s a much better return.

    16. bluke
      July 27th, 2016 | 12:53 am

      I know that you are down on the Yankees but this deal specifically can’t be criticized. Every single writer who knows something about prospects and minor leaguers has praised this deal. Except for you I haven’t seen a single criticism of the return the Yankees got. Sometimes you just need to admit that Brian Cashman did something right.

    17. Raf
      July 27th, 2016 | 7:08 am

      YoureNotAMetsFan wrote:

      Not sure how that’s a much better return.

      It’s more a dig at Cashman, than anything. :-P

    18. Evan3457
      July 27th, 2016 | 9:43 am

      Raf wrote:

      YoureNotAMetsFan wrote:
      Not sure how that’s a much better return.
      It’s more a dig at Cashman, than anything.

      Backhanded, but yeah. Praising somebody else’s deal for a lesser reliever.

    19. Evan3457
      July 27th, 2016 | 10:30 am

      An oddity. Most of the other good hitters on Myrtle Beach, including Ian Happ, hit much better at home than on the road. Torres’ split was the opposite, hitting much better on the road than at home.

      I don’t know what it means, but it’s curious.

      Vogelbach also exhibited the same split this year as well, a lot better on the road than at home. But in his case, not so mysterious: the PCL has a bunch of extreme hitters’ parks, of which Tacoma is not one of them.

    20. Evan3457
      July 27th, 2016 | 7:01 pm

      I said the description of Torres’ hitting style and ability made me think “not-quite-Jeter” in my post at the top of this thread. Apparently, I’m not the first to think this.

      Today, on the Kay radio show on ESPN, Keith Law said this:

      I will say, even before he was ever on the Yankees’ radar, a scout who spent a lot of time watching him (Torres) in Low-A last year, compared him at the plate to Derek Jeter, in terms of his ability to stay inside the ball and go to the opposite field, especially when he was behind in the count. And to see an 18-year old, which he was at the time in Low-A, that’s pretty unusual. Guys like that don’t come around very often, and that’s why I’ve been high on him, really, ever since he first began playing regularly in the Cubs’ system.

    21. KPOcala
      July 27th, 2016 | 7:19 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      Strong stuff for Law, he seems to have a chip on his shoulder regarding the Yankees.

    22. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2016 | 12:05 am

      KPOcala wrote:

      @ Evan3457:
      Strong stuff for Law, he seems to have a chip on his shoulder regarding the Yankees.

      Hey, look, nobody’s gonna be another Jeter.
      But if Torres is close to Jeter as a hitter, that’s a terrific asset in a middle infielder.

    23. Evan3457
      July 28th, 2016 | 12:07 am

      Just a side note to Steve:

      In the previous thread, you fault Cashman for wanting obtain Schwarber, calling him another Ken Phelps.

      Yet you think the Mariners did better in getting Vogelbach, a lesser hitting prospect and a player with less speed and less defensive capability than Schwarber?

      I don’t see how those positions can be reconciled with each other.

    24. KPOcala
      July 28th, 2016 | 10:45 am

      @ Evan3457:
      It’s “Cashman”, you silly ;)

    25. LMJ229
      July 30th, 2016 | 10:33 pm

      From all of the accounts that I have read, most “experts” believe that Cashman did exceptionally well in the Chapman trade. Cashman generally does well in trades. Personally, I think it is because he has thin skin and wants to be sure that he has “won” the trade to avoid criticism. His aversion to criticism generally works in our favor when he pulls the trigger on a trade. But it also works against us when he doesn’t do a deal for the same reason.

    26. Evan3457
      July 31st, 2016 | 5:16 am

      LMJ229 wrote:

      From all of the accounts that I have read, most “experts” believe that Cashman did exceptionally well in the Chapman trade. Cashman generally does well in trades. Personally, I think it is because he has thin skin and wants to be sure that he has “won” the trade to avoid criticism. His aversion to criticism generally works in our favor when he pulls the trigger on a trade. But it also works against us when he doesn’t do a deal for the same reason.

      Right now, the deals that aren’t getting done aren’t getting done because Hal and the business side won’t permit them to sell.

    27. LMJ229
      July 31st, 2016 | 8:18 am

      Evan3457 wrote:

      Right now, the deals that aren’t getting done aren’t getting done because Hal and the business side won’t permit them to sell.

      I just can’t understand their thinking. If they want the Yankees to remain relevant, that’s just not going to happen. This team can’t beat anyone in their own division. They will eventually finish with a sub-.500 record.

    28. LMJ229
      July 31st, 2016 | 10:42 am

      Wow, Miller to Indians. Did not expect that.

    29. Greg H.
      July 31st, 2016 | 10:58 am

      Pretty soon the Yanks roster will be un recognizable. That’s probably the best news yet this year.

    30. redbug
      July 31st, 2016 | 11:05 am

      Maybe w/ the money saved, they’ll release Arod. (why did Joe put Arod in as clean-up last night??)

    31. Evan3457
      July 31st, 2016 | 12:43 pm

      LMJ229 wrote:

      Wow, Miller to Indians. Did not expect that.

      I wasn’t expecting them to move Miller either. But at least they got two legit prospects for him and two possible relief arms. They were likely headed to be rated a top 10 farm system this fall. Now, they might be near the top 5.

    32. Raf
      July 31st, 2016 | 1:19 pm

      LMJ229 wrote:

      Wow, Miller to Indians. Did not expect that.

      I figured he would be traded, but I’m surprised he went to the Indians.

      Welcome back, Tyler Clippard.

    33. Evan3457
      July 31st, 2016 | 1:27 pm

      redbug wrote:

      Maybe w/ the money saved, they’ll release Arod. (why did Joe put Arod in as clean-up last night??)

      To prove a point?

    34. KPOcala
      July 31st, 2016 | 2:11 pm

      @ Evan3457:Oh, no question about it. I was just amazed to read Anything “Yankee positive” from “KLaw”. The kid must have serious talent to get That praise. Almost like Steve praising a Cashman move ;)

    35. redbug
      July 31st, 2016 | 3:19 pm

      @ Evan3457:

      I think Joe has effectively making his point by not playing Arod. No need to blow a game by having him bat 4th.

    36. Evan3457
      July 31st, 2016 | 4:21 pm

      redbug wrote:

      @ Evan3457:
      I think Joe has effectively making his point by not playing Arod. No need to blow a game by having him bat 4th.

      To force Hal to see the light, finally?

    37. redbug
      July 31st, 2016 | 6:50 pm

      @ Evan3457:

      I hope so. I can’t stand Arod. And, what use is there in having him take up a spot on the roster?

    38. Raf
      August 1st, 2016 | 6:10 am

      One of the new guys trained at Kyle Boddie’s Driveline Baseball.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/drivelinebases/status/721450726476619780

    39. KPOcala
      August 1st, 2016 | 3:51 pm

      Beltran traded to to Texas for their 2015 #1 draft pick right hand pitcher Dillon Tate, plus minor league right-handed pitchers Erik Swanson and Nick Green. I don’t know ANYTHING about these guys, yet……..

    40. KPOcala
      August 1st, 2016 | 5:08 pm

      Nova traded to Pirates for two “PTBN”……

    41. redbug
      August 1st, 2016 | 6:15 pm

      Well, we’ll see how these trades work out in the next few years. Dump Arod and I’ll be a happy fan.

    42. Evan3457
      August 1st, 2016 | 7:11 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      Beltran traded to to Texas for their 2015 #1 draft pick right hand pitcher Dillon Tate, plus minor league right-handed pitchers Erik Swanson and Nick Green. I don’t know ANYTHING about these guys, yet……..

      Tate was the 5th pick in the draft last year. Struggling in A-Ball this year. Had some hamstring issues, and allegedly lost velocity from when he was drafted, which is why the Rangers made him available. Two quick blurbs on Erik Swanson:

      In a scouting report on Phillies prospect Franklyn Kilome is this note:
      “A maddeningly inconsistent arm with command that comes and goes, flashing all of the individual pieces for number 2 upside, yet less impressive as an overall package than his opposing number on Thursday, Rangers sleeper Erik Swanson, who sat 93-96, touched 98, and showed some feel for a change and slider.

      And this from a prospect chat, when asked who the favorite sleeper prospect in the Rangers system was, the chatter responded: “Erik Swanson’s apparently found some velo, reportedly as high as 98, and has some nice looking numbers. He is 22 in low-A, but he missed a lot of time in 2015, so he could jump through the level if the results are real.

    43. KPOcala
      August 1st, 2016 | 9:04 pm

      @ Evan3457:
      Seems like a pretty decent haul, no?

    44. Evan3457
      August 1st, 2016 | 10:09 pm

      KPOcala wrote:

      @ Evan3457:
      Seems like a pretty decent haul, no?

      I think the Yanks did just fine in their dump deals. Now, let’s see if they can finish the development, and deliver these guys to the majors as real players.

    45. LMJ229
      August 1st, 2016 | 11:55 pm

      Evan3457 wrote:

      I think the Yanks did just fine in their dump deals. Now, let’s see if they can finish the development, and deliver these guys to the majors as real players.

      Yup, that’s the real test.

    46. LMJ229
      August 1st, 2016 | 11:58 pm

      Greg H. wrote:

      Pretty soon the Yanks roster will be un recognizable. That’s probably the best news yet this year.

      Amen to that. I’m looking forward to seeing some fresh faces. They really should release A-Rod now too.

    47. Evan3457
      August 2nd, 2016 | 3:23 am

      LMJ229 wrote:

      Evan3457 wrote:
      I think the Yanks did just fine in their dump deals. Now, let’s see if they can finish the development, and deliver these guys to the majors as real players.
      Yup, that’s the real test.

      If they can, then that would be a rebuilding, would it not?

    48. Greg H.
      August 2nd, 2016 | 9:47 am

      Pretty excited that the team actually did sell. Would have liked to see McCann go as well, but that just might happen this winter. Haven’t had such a farm system in recent memory. It will be fun to watch ch the team evolve,

    49. LMJ229
      August 4th, 2016 | 2:30 am

      Evan3457 wrote:

      LMJ229 wrote:
      Evan3457 wrote:
      I think the Yanks did just fine in their dump deals. Now, let’s see if they can finish the development, and deliver these guys to the majors as real players.
      Yup, that’s the real test.
      If they can, then that would be a rebuilding, would it not?

      Yeah, I’d say so. My concern is that the Yankees have a history of not delivering these guys to the majors. However, that philosophy seems to be changing lately. We’ll see.

    50. LMJ229
      August 4th, 2016 | 2:37 am

      Greg H. wrote:

      Pretty excited that the team actually did sell. Would have liked to see McCann go as well, but that just might happen this winter. Haven’t had such a farm system in recent memory. It will be fun to watch ch the team evolve,

      I agree. They should definitely shop McCann this winter. We have enough catching prospects to make him expendable. But my guess is they will wind up keeping him. He can catch and DH while schooling the younger guys.

    51. KPOcala
      August 4th, 2016 | 12:48 pm

      There might ‘unsustainable exuberance’ in the Yankee Community right now. YES, it IS possible for the prospects making a huge jump, and hit the ground running in ’17 or ’18. But that would be discounting the ‘injury bug’, and a hell of a lot of these players being maybe 5 years from hitting their stride. Even the Fab Five didn’t start hitting bombs, and high batting averages for a few years. People forget that a lot of veterans were traded for, or bought, back in the early nineties. If this team can win 140 games over the next two years, well, I’d be in a funk, but not surprised.

    52. KPOcala
      August 4th, 2016 | 1:11 pm

      Funny. A certain “BRIAN CASHMAN” seems to be garnering major props regarding his trading prowess (which considering the nature of the Beast may amount to nothing). Among other articles I’ve run across, check out this assessment from Jim Callis:
      http://m.mlb.com/news/article/193317666/midseason-ranking-of-mlbs-top-10-farm-systems/?topicid=151437456 Pretty damned nice things to say about the trades, the drafts, and maximizing his assets in acquiring players….. I’m sure that ALL of you will love the evaluation…..

    53. Ben M.
      August 5th, 2016 | 7:06 am

      Hey Steve, our friend Murray Chass, the retired NY Times baseball writer, has more to say about the Yankees and Brian Cashman:

      YANKS TRADE STAR PLAYERS, KEEP DUD G.M.

      http://www.murraychass.com/?p=10242

    54. Evan3457
      August 5th, 2016 | 10:29 am

      Ben M. wrote:

      Hey Steve, our friend Murray Chass, the retired NY Times baseball writer, has more to say about the Yankees and Brian Cashman:
      YANKS TRADE STAR PLAYERS, KEEP DUD G.M.
      http://www.murraychass.com/?p=10242

      Chass’ column is silly for the following reason: Hal Steinbrenner backed each of the overall strategies as they happened. They’ve said that Hal was very “hands-on” in approving each of these trades.

    55. August 6th, 2016 | 3:48 pm

      I’ve basically been offline and unplugged for the last 8 days. So, what did I miss? :-)

    56. Evan3457
      August 6th, 2016 | 5:57 pm

      Steve L. wrote:

      I’ve basically been offline and unplugged for the last 8 days. So, what did I miss?

      1) Good for you.
      2) Maybe the first step on the road back.

    57. redbug
      August 7th, 2016 | 7:26 am

      Tune in today at 11 when, at long last, hopefully, we will learn Arod’s time as a Yankee is over.

    58. Mick
      August 7th, 2016 | 11:22 am

      @ Steve L.:
      Arod Calling it a Day… No 700 unless he has a good week @ Fenway

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